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baywolf
Feb 17, 2003, 8:57 PM
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I saw this in some mag a couple of years ago.
you can take your full(9mm-10.5mm) rope and take one end of it, thread it through the anchors and tie a fig-8 on a bight and clip a locking biner to the end. then with a much smaller diamiter rope( I use a 7mm),the same length as your full rope, tie a bight in the end and attach that to the same locking biner that your full rope is clipped to. then use the full lenght of your full rope to rap, the locking biner will prevent your rope from sliding through the anchors. @ the bottom you just pull your rope through with the smaller rope and your off. this is a lot lighter method than carrying two full ropes. the only problem that I ran into was my 7mm rope was getting tangled, but I solved that problem by using a stuff sack.
what do you think? anybody use this method?
Jared
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danskiz
Feb 17, 2003, 9:03 PM
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Why not just use double 8.8 mm ropes? Probably not much heavier than a 10, and a 7. Plus doubles are much nicer for wandering routes.
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baywolf
Feb 17, 2003, 9:16 PM
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well i guess one could do that too. only i have never used two half ropes. this is just the way I do things, im not saying its right... im just putting the thought out there.
Jared
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voltzwgn
Feb 17, 2003, 9:22 PM
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I've also heard of this being done using parachute cord for the second line, probably cheaper, lighter and smaller than the 7mm stuff. I've never felt the need to do this but it is an option.
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easysteve
Feb 17, 2003, 9:54 PM
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Don't use parachute cord for that. Or 550, or rare 500. It should say on the packaging to not use it for climbing purposes, more specifically rapping
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kman
Feb 17, 2003, 10:04 PM
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^ if you read the original post again you'll notice that he is only using the smaller diameter cord as a pull cord, and not using it for the actual rap. Correct?
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madturtle
Feb 17, 2003, 10:06 PM
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Does anyone else see a safety concern w/ pulling a locking biner from 200 feet above? That could put a good dent in somebody I'd think.
I've heard of using a 7 mm pull cord before but is connecting the 2 w/ a biner standard M.O.
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Right, the 7mm is only used in pulling the rap rope. as for getting hit with a biner...when was the last time you got hit with the middle of your rope when you pulled it through any other anchors?
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phugganut
Feb 18, 2003, 2:49 AM
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I don't think I'd want to use a biner after it had taken a 200' fall :!:
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 8:28 PM
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I use an old biner which i designate only for that purpose.
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flamer
Feb 18, 2003, 9:39 PM
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The biner is not going to take a fall! you should have it in hand before the rest of the rope comes down...have you people never rappeled before? Also if you are using a 7mm why not just rap normally? A 7mm and a 10mm tied together are just fine for rapping! Now P-cord i could understand. The only time I see this technique as useful is if you were rappeling overhanging terrain the is unknown to you. That way if you need to reascend the rope you could....
josh
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baywolf
Feb 18, 2003, 11:34 PM
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Actually Flamer I just went and looked at it and its really only a 5mm. And as for repelling with it....I wouldn't even use it to tie into anchors. Im sure it would hold, but I like a little more girth.
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smithclimber
Feb 19, 2003, 12:24 AM
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I've done this several times and I'm fond of it (as long as there is little chance of the rope(s) catching on anything as they fall down.
I've used a 5mm x 60m "pull cord" in conjunction with the 8.8mm lead line we used to rap off of a ridge traverse.
I've also rapped down big walls using the technique. Used the same 5mm line in conjunction with the 10.5mm lead line.
I've always just tied the two ropes together with a large enough knot that it couldn't pass through the anchor, however there is no reason you couldn't use the biner method if you really prefer.
If you are going to go ahead and employ the biner, you might as well go ahead and configure it so that the biner (which is effectively connecting the two lines) is also clipped back onto the thicker rope (lead line) as an extra back up. This makes it even safer since it eliminates the possibility of a failure in the event that the knot does SOMEHOW get pulled through the anchors.
One last little advantage of using this method is that you can simply rap that thicker rope with a Grigri. This comes in very handy when rappeling down big walls where you may have to stop from time to time, freeing up both hands to place gear, to hold the rap line close to an overhanging or traversing pitch that you are reversing.
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baywolf
Feb 21, 2003, 10:16 PM
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Just wondering Smith, What knot do you use to connect your 5mm to your rap line? being that there is such a difference in diamiter do you use a sheet(becket) bend?
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smithclimber
Feb 21, 2003, 11:01 PM
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It depends. I use a square knot backed up by triple fisherman's knots (this is my standard knot for joining 2 rap ropes) as long as it will not be able to slip through the anchor. Often though, I will need to use another type of knot that has a larger profile (multiple Euro Death Knots).
Sometimes I'll use one particular knot to actually join the two lines and then a separate large profile knot tied right next to it (on the thicker rope's side of the initial knot) that will be the one that actually jams against the anchor.
The anchor you are working with will dictate what type(s) of knot(s) you will want to use.
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flamer
Feb 22, 2003, 2:45 AM
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Baywolf,
I would not suggest rapping a 5mm! Although strength wise you would probably be fine, I to prefer a little more love....When are we climbing ? I need to be climbing more!!!
josh
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smithclimber
Feb 23, 2003, 8:03 PM
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Just to clarify, Flamer, I've explained using the 5mm as the "pull down cord" not using it to actually rappel on. You are still rappeling on the thicker rope (i.e. 10mm), and then using the 5mm to "retrieve".
Just want that to be clear.
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godsmybelayer
Feb 23, 2003, 8:10 PM
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Someone please explain this better and in detail, we have people here who think your talking about rappelling on this line!!!!
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col_sanderz
Feb 23, 2003, 8:54 PM
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The way the original poster described the method, seems like the same way that petzl suggests you rappel with a gri-gri...anyone else look at the manual??
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flamer
Feb 24, 2003, 3:45 AM
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Smith Climber,
Yeah I knew what you meant! I thought It was implied that I suggested rapping a 5mm and was trying to make in clear that I did not!
On another note...did we fly from Denver to Vegas together at X-mas one year? I think it was....2000? If this is you we talked about useing this technique for lightening your load when 2 ropes are required...
josh
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baywolf
Feb 24, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Hi Everybody. Ok to clear this up.
You start with a full size rope(9.5mm-10.5mm), which is the only line holding weight, and we will call this rope #1. Thread #1 through the anchors. With the treaded end of #1 tie a smaller diam. rope(#2) that is the same length or longer than that of your full rope. I use a 5mm for my #2. Now #2 is only used as a pull line. You must make sure that the knot used to tie #1 & #2 together is significantly larger than the anchor diamiter so that the knot can't be pulled through the anchors. This will allow you to rap using only the #1 rope at its full length, be it a 50m or 60m.
I hope this clears things up but it would be a good idea for anyone planning on using this technique to find it in a published climbing book/mag.
Jared
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aquadood
Dec 6, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Old tread, but i thought i'd add this recent Rock & Ice article for reference.
The Reepschnur Method:
http://www.rockandice.com/...91-reepschnur-review
Baywolf, in your last post you forgot to mention tying the F8-on-a-bight + locker around #1. Forgetting this caused a fatality in Yose this season.
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tower_climber
Dec 6, 2010, 7:54 PM
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This is kind of like the pull-down method of rappelling employed in vertical caving.
You thread one end of the rap rope through the anchor chain.
Then thread it through a large washer. I keep three 3" OD x .5" ID wishers in my pack on a P-cord loop with chain links and descending rings for rigging. These washers will work for up to 11mm ropes.
Take your P-cord and tie it to the rope with a clove hitch (good) or double fisherman's (better), leaving a 12-18" tag of the rap rope beyond the knot.
Tie the tag to the rap rope into a double or triple fisherman's, with the P-cord running through the center of the knot. You now have the p-cord and rap rope joined by a double fisherman's bend.
Weight the rap rope and rap down. The washer keeps the knot from squeezing through the chain link or rolling/pulling out because of the link.
When you're at the bottom, pull the p-cord and retrieve the rope.
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shimanilami
Dec 6, 2010, 8:16 PM
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I don't think that your set-up accomplishes quite the same thing. Imagine if you were single-line rappeling off a tree rather than rap rings. Your 3" washers aren't going to help you much (not, at least, the way I'm picturing it). The backup method described in the R&I article, however, makes single-line rappeling off of a tree totally viable.
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Dec 6, 2010, 8:19 PM)
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tower_climber
Dec 6, 2010, 8:23 PM
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If you're rapping off just the tree, I'd agree. However, if you're slinging it with webbing (which would be a better decision anyway) you can accomplish the same setup. Along with the washers, I have several single heavy-gauge chain links in my rigging kit. Simply thread the link onto the webbing before tying it off, and you are set to rig the washer stop. The chain links are cheaper than descending rings, and easier to find (Home Depot and Lowes will cut chain links for you from 10,000lb-rated chain).
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