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mr_gondola
Apr 23, 2003, 4:41 AM
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Sport climbing seems to accept that you have pushed yourself to a very respectable level if you can climb 12's. There's the "How to Climb 5.12" book out and all that stuff. It just seems to be an accepted grade as a high shooting point...(on your way to 14d of course :roll: ) and I don't know, V7 or V10 or something is considered a good goal for bouldering...(don't quote me on that)
So...what is that equivalent point for trad? People who trad 12's are generally thought to be super elite... like climbers doing 13 or 14 sport... so there must be an in between goal???? :?
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boltdude
Apr 23, 2003, 4:48 AM
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5.9+
unless it's an offwidth or squeeze chimney, then it's 5.9.
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redpiton
Apr 23, 2003, 4:49 AM
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If you Trad a 10, you are one strong climber, mentally and physically.
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apollodorus
Apr 23, 2003, 4:53 AM
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Easy 5.12 sport is like 5.6 or 5.7 trad.
Moderate 5.12 sport is like 5.9+/- trad.
Hard 5.12 sport is like 5.10+ trad.
5.14d sport is almost the same as 5.11c trad, except way easier.
There is no such thing as a sport route as hard as 5.12 trad.
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 5:08 AM
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I'd say add 2 letter grades, 12a sport=11c trad if you're equally good at both, the trick is being equally good at both
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calpolyclimber
Apr 23, 2003, 5:26 AM
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This is weird to think about... I have trad climbed several 10a's, but I have never even tried sport above 10c. Interesting... Maybe its just cause I like trad better.
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camhead
Apr 23, 2003, 5:40 AM
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so far, the only person to make sense in this whole thread is kalcario. even he doesn't really answer the question, however.
if you mean, what is respectable for trad... I don't know. I'd say 5.11 or 5.12, but the poster seems to think that .12 is like super elite or something.
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brianthew
Apr 23, 2003, 5:41 AM
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I think most of it is just mental....in my short time of trad leading after a long time at sport, I find the biggest challenge is just being able to place the gear from crappy stances and have the cajones to move off of it. 5.12 and such in sport is a physical rating to the moves...when we talk about "trad" we add the mental dimension to that as well. If you can climb 5.12 sport you can 5.12 trad...theoretically, ignoring the terror factor and the gear stance factor. 5.12 sport = 5.12 trad physically, but mentally......yack.
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climbsomething
Apr 23, 2003, 5:52 AM
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I know what you're saying. When we learn to sport lead, 5.6 or 5.7 is a good starting point, but trad leading, it's considered entirely acceptable to go for the 5.4s, if not lower. When Beth Rodden flashed a 13a crack, it was newsworthy in the mags, but flashing a 13a sport route wouldn't really grab anybody's attention anymore, unless the climber was like, 9 years old or something else to make it novel.
I consider trad leading 5.9 to be plenty impressive, 5.10 more impressive, and 5.11 pretty damn rad.
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camhead
Apr 23, 2003, 6:03 AM
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yeah, but Beth Rodden's 'trad' ascent of Country Boy that was oh so glorified was with preplaced gear! you can see it in the photos! I am not trying to start an ethics war here– all I'm saying is, what is the difference between leading a sport route and leading a trad route with preplaced stoppers? not much, I don't think. Apart from that one distinguisher of traddies... CRACK SKILLS!!! huh huh.
which brings me to brian's comment (damn, I'm on a rampage tonight) that the moves themselves of sport and trad are not that different from one another. Like, once a 5.12 sporto gets the mental thang down, he/she/it can go off and lead 5.12 trad.
yeah right.
crack skills and endurance are not something that come easily to a lot of sportos, and are essential for most trad.
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 6:04 AM
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*If you can climb 5.12 sport you can 5.12 trad...theoretically, ignoring the terror factor and the gear stance factor. 5.12 sport = 5.12 trad physically, but mentally......yack.*
Believe it or not I get way more gripped on sport than I ever used to on trad because on sport you have to run it out to the next piece, trad you can (usually) lace up and never move away from the gear, also crack climbing is just more secure-feeling and easier to read than sport
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philbox
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Apr 23, 2003, 6:04 AM
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I`ve prolly climbed more trad climbs in the 11 range than I have sport climbing in that same range. I still haven`t got my head around the fact that falling is an entirely acceptable part of sport climbing. Smatter fact I`m pretty sure I`ve lead harder trad than I have sport. But then my grounding has been on trad cracks where the gear is always good and if you aren`t sure about the move ya just chuck in another piece of gear to create a top rope. Moving up way past the only bolt for miles around is somewhat problematic for me, it really messes with my head.
...Phil...
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 6:11 AM
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I consider 5.10 trad to still be in the "moderate" range. For some unknown reason, I draw the line at 5.10+ and consider that to be serious leading. But I also recognize that some 5.9's (Tit's & Beer, HonkyTonk Woman, DNB) are fairly serious leads in their own right.
I do however believe that "true" climbing really starts at the 5.9 threshold (trad-wise). By this I mean the point at which it ceases to be a hobby and requires real commitment to all aspects of the endeavour in order to succeed. The point where failure may mean more than just backing off.
Consequences.
Nothing like climbs that challenge one to make serious decisions regarding risk management and having to face serious consequences if one were to fail (fall) in the business district (crux).
5.9 is where climbing stops being good for your body.
5.10 is where climbing starts to annoy your body.
5.11 is where climbing starts to degenerate the body.
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brianthew
Apr 23, 2003, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: If you can climb 5.12 sport you can 5.12 trad... theoretically, ignoring the terror factor and the gear stance factor. 5.12 sport = 5.12 trad physically, but mentally......yack.
Theoretically, people!
Well obviously crack climbing is another can of worms altogether. I was just emphasizing the barrier isn't so much physical as it is mental.
Not all trad is crack. Not all sport is face/slab.
In reply to: crack skills and endurance are not something that come easily to a lot of sportos, and are essential for most trad.
I'd have to disagree with that second part...endurance...there are wicked endurance sport routes, sustained hard sport is pumpy as anything. Also recall multipitch sport. Endurance comes as easy to bolt-clippers as it does to gear-placers.....long is long. Pumpy is pumpy.
Often I get more pumped out on trad than I would on sport....that's cuz I death-grip things I shouldn't. Again....the mental game.
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 6:21 AM
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Solid in grade means solid in grade....
All types of climbs, techniques, and formations.
Chimneys, offwidths, cracks of assorted sizes from finger tip liebacking to chicken-wing flailing, thin face, overhanging arete....
I don't think one has valid claim to solidity in a grade untill one has mastered all aspects relevent to that level.
I don't thinks it's uncommon to have greater skills in one area over another. I find I can "push the grade" in certain areas (finger and/or hand crack is my forte) but would never say I was solid in anything unless I had hundreds of routes of that kind under my belt.
Yes Kids....hundreds.
Leading two 5.9 chimneys does not one a solid 5.9 leader make....
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camhead
Apr 23, 2003, 6:22 AM
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[office]I'm going to have to disagree with you there...[/office]
yes, there are endurance sport climbs that really pump you out, but the endurance required to haul up a steep bolted route cannot compare to the endurance required to place gear. that's a fact.
I mean, what takes more endurance, clipping a bolt from a 5.12 stance, or eyeballing the right cam placement or (gulp) fiddling in a microstopper? mental composure aside, it takes longer to place gear– hence more endurance needed.
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brianthew
Apr 23, 2003, 6:27 AM
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Hehe...office space...one movie I've never seen but have been told I must....
Yes, yes, yes....climbing a trad grade is much harder than climbing the same sport grade. I agree, I know...my hardest trad is two and a half lower than my hardest sport. I've gotten pumped out while placing gear on trad.
But I still maintain that the biggest barrier in trad climbing is mental.
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climbsomething
Apr 23, 2003, 6:29 AM
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In reply to: crack skills and endurance are not something that come easily to a lot of sportos, and are essential for most trad.
I am a sporto with an almost stupid amount of endurance. (which is at times a bane for my belayers) It is, ironically, a product of my extended sucking (tenacity is a nicer word though ;) )! I'll get up on a project, I'll flail, I'll snap off, flail, snap, flail, snap, repeat. It takes a lot of endurance to keep running head-on into the same hard challenge 5, 10, 15 times in a row. When I do finally get a clean ascent, I'm like, that's all? I'll have energy to burn still.
That said, my endurance on pure crack climbing sucks, but that's cos my jamming sucks anyway. Cos... I'm a sporto ;) la la LLLAAAAAAAAA :D
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 6:30 AM
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the brain certainly has more work to do in trad.....
....food for thought?
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brianthew
Apr 23, 2003, 6:32 AM
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^ perhaps that is why most of the trad and aid climbers I know are engineers :D
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dukeclimber
Apr 23, 2003, 7:02 AM
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I think that being solid at any trade grade means being able and willing to lead an R or X route at that grade. I hope no one is stupid enough to jump on serious leads without being truely solid at the grade. I still haven't taken a fall on gear, and I don't plan on doing it anytime soon. I'll keep doing moderate leads and working my way up slowly, but safely. My hardest leads have been 5.7s but I would have no problem jumping on a 5.6 R or X. To me that means that 5.6 is where I am solid.
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 8:12 AM
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I go along with that assessment, willingness to lead R/X.
Good call.
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koto
Apr 23, 2003, 8:51 AM
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In reply to: Easy 5.12 sport is like 5.6 or 5.7 trad.
I would have to disagree with this, because I can climb 5.7 5.8 trad, but at this stage, there's no way in hell of me getting up a 5.12 clean, even on a top rope!
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timstich
Apr 23, 2003, 11:19 AM
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In reply to: I`ve prolly climbed more trad climbs in the 11 range than I have sport climbing in that same range. I still haven`t got my head around the fact that falling is an entirely acceptable part of sport climbing. ...Phil...
No no no! We feel the same way about falling and try to avoid it like the plague. That's why we just yell "take" before the whipper. It jolts the belayer's beer less, allows you to continue the frigging near your last stance, and of course extends the fun for hours.
-Tim S.
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ambler
Apr 23, 2003, 1:10 PM
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"Sport climbing" implies a certain degree of quality, predictability and ease regarding the protection. "Trad climbing" implies no such thing. A particular grade, say 5.11, covers a far wider range of challenges on trad climbs than on sport. Not only, how good and how widely spaced is the protection, but how hard will you have to work to place it? Can you hang on long enough to get something in? Will you spend so much energy placing gear that you don't have enough left for the moves? Where is your next piece gonna come from? Which direction does the route go from here? Is that flake up there loose? Should you place your only 0 TCU now, or will you need it up higher? If you fall here, will *anything* below you hold? Will you find an anchor before the rope runs out?
You can climb many "trad" trade routes without encountering these dilemmas, but with broader experience, they're out there. I think that in general the heavy focus on grades as a measure of achievement is a product of gym, toproping and sport backgrounds -- because grades *are* the main measure there. But you can't take the same view of trad climbing, because grades there are just one part of the story. I've backed off of 5.7 and hiked up 5.10c, both the same weekend around Moab. Asking "What's the trad equivalent to a 5.12?" is misunderstanding, I think, what trad climbing is like, or about. Some trad 5.12s (or 5.7s) are only a little bit more complicated than their sport counterparts; others are a whole different world.
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