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pywiak
Apr 23, 2003, 9:43 PM
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I don't buy the argument that there is a three grade difference between sport and trad ratings. Yes, efficiently placing gear is a skill, but so is efficiently clipping a bolt. With practice, you get good at it, and it becomes part of the flow of the climb. Very, very few climbers jump on a pitch and blast through in a continuous flurry of moves. Rather, there's an ebb and flow, a stop and start as you read the route and milk the rests. Only inexperienced tradsters stop in the middle of cruxes to place gear - most folks climb through, hit the easier bit (the better jam, the little edge, the trick rest) and then diddle with the gear. When you get sufficiently skilled with a solid physical capacity in a particular technique (say crack-climbing), placing gear becomes an afterthought, not a necessity.
Yes, the "working the route" aspect of sportclimbing makes routes feel easier - practice makes perfect. You can apply the same techniques to trad to conquer just about any horrorshow. Push your physical limit at any grade long enough and you'll discover your onsight level rising in the process - whatever climbing game you play.
The .12s I climbed two decades ago (trad) are no easier or more difficult than the .12s I climbed a decade ago (clipping bolts). People are more fit, standards have risen, and gear is better, but to say the difficulty scales have gone whacko because of the type of protection system is boatload of hooey from folks who need to spend more time climbing more types of climbs and less time projecting their insecurities.
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 9:53 PM
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* Ratings do not reflect the difficulty of placing pro -- there aren't "top-rope" grades and "lead" grades,*
Because no-one rates trad climbs for how hard they are to top rope!
*and when a mixed route or trad climb gets retro-bolted (hopefully with the permission of the first ascentionist) the grade does not change. See: the entire tradition of N. American climbing.*
Trad routes get retro bolted because there WAS no gear where the new bolt goes in, so of course the grade won't be affected...why else would a trad route get bolted? I mean, if somebody adds a bolt or 2 to a previously runout slab, of course the rating is'nt affected because there was'nt any gear in the first place. It might go from R/X to PG, but...what you're saying is that trad difficulty is the same with or without pre-placed gear, which is nonsense.
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 10:02 PM
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*Yes, efficiently placing gear is a skill, but so is efficiently clipping a bolt. With practice, you get good at it, and it becomes part of the flow of the climb.*
First of all, on trad you are carrying and placing the gear, on sport with prehung draws, which is usually the case on threshold redpoints, you are just doing the clipping motion, which no matter how adept you are with trad gear is always gonna be easier. And for that reason I think the 2 or 3 letter grade gap between sport and trad is reasonably accurate.
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maypop
Apr 23, 2003, 10:24 PM
Post #54 of 98
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"what you're saying is that trad difficulty is the same with or without pre-placed gear, which is nonsense."
That is, in fact, the way ratings are done in this country. It's part of why ratings don't tell the whole story. When Beth Rodden did Sphinx Crack she didn't change the grade to reflect the pre-placed gear, no one covered it as a climb with a different rating and the guidebook rasting didn't change. But, being the honest climber that she is, she didn't try to hide the fact that the gear was put in on rappel.
Yes, it's harder to lead a climb and place gear at the same time -- I've said that all along. But no, the number does not change. If it did, there would be huge descrepencies between ratings on trad climbs where the gear is easy to place and the ones that are "plug and go." So, we rate climbs by how hard the moves are alone. The rest you have to convey with hand motions, spray and telling your partners to "get on the route yourself -- you'll see!"
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 10:28 PM
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pywiak:
Monkeys can be trained to efficiently place draws, c'mon.
Choosing the correct piece, efficiently placing it in a not-so-always-obvious placement, and doing so in a manner that provides ample protection is a higher order skill.
When you state that "inexperienced tradsters" place gear at the crux, you have it Bass ackwards.
Experienced Tradsters find placements at the crux that noobs don't. Hanging out, getting a good piece at the crux is sometimes the distilled essence of a particular climb. True enough that the ole salty dogs of trad know when to shut-up, suck-it-up and do some hard climbin', but getting gear at a hard crux is the forte of the truly masterful, not the incompetently inexperienced.
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danl
Apr 23, 2003, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: " As for Survival being called 12c/d, it takes some balls to downrate one of the most historic .13a routes in the East. Maybe it's correct for difficulty -- is anyone calling Persistance 11-? I doubt it, certainly not those who lead it.
no doubt it's historic...no doubt its hard. but that seems to be the current consensus rating here at the gunks. having spent a day clenching the taco hold and matching madness and even after the pebbly foot has broken of its thought to be 12c/d.
I'll add another element of confusion...I'll concede that survival is a 13a if considered on the onsight lead.
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drkodos
Apr 23, 2003, 10:37 PM
Post #57 of 98
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Having led Persistence, I can chime in that I think a grade of hard 11 fits, maybe 5.11+.
I still like the ole +/- system of trad.
Some areas (Red Rocks) differentiate between a Spurt route and a traditionally protected route by using the a-d sutem for the former and the +/- for the latter.
I personally lobby for a differentiation between grading, much akin to the movement in bouldering to redefine the ratings of their genre.
Let's be honest, it's not Sport Climbing that we trads detest so much, it's Sport Climbers :wink:
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maypop
Apr 23, 2003, 10:41 PM
Post #58 of 98
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"I'll add another element of confusion...I'll concede that survival is a 13a if considered on the onsight lead."
Word! I know that's contradictory to how ratings are supposed to be done, but anyone who walked up to Survival and figured it out on lead, while placing gear, would be THE SHIZZNIT.
Wait, I'm too old to talk like that.
I 'd guess .12d is about right for pure diff. though it's been a few years ...
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kalcario
Apr 23, 2003, 10:48 PM
Post #59 of 98
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*When Beth Rodden did Sphinx Crack she didn't change the grade to reflect the pre-placed gear, no one covered it as a climb with a different rating and the guidebook rasting didn't change. But, being the honest climber that she is, she didn't try to hide the fact that the gear was put in on rappel.*
Trad climbs are not rated for how hard they are to pinkpoint. I don't care if she didn't downrate it, it is SO much harder to protect that route (that one in particular, otherwise she would have just fired it, right? She fired The Phoenix in Yosemite with no fixed pro I think) than it is to pinkpoint it that they're like 2 different routes.
*Yes, it's harder to lead a climb and place gear at the same time -- I've said that all along. But no, the number does not change. If it did, there would be huge descrepencies between ratings on trad climbs where the gear is easy to place and the ones that are "plug and go."*
I think you mean "where the gear is harder to place", right? Anyway, I am just not following you here...I mean, there ARE huge rating discrepencies between routes with easy gear and hard gear placements, routes with diff. gear tend to be harder by their very nature, whereas, like you said, 5.12 handcracks are pretty rare. We're just gonna disagree here, I say that the diff. of placing the gear is factored into the rating of trad climbs.
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crackaddict
Apr 23, 2003, 10:51 PM
Post #60 of 98
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I climb 5.11 both on trad and sport.
To me its like comparing apples to oranges. Both have their own techniques and every route is different. Then you have different areas, rock type,.
Its all about developing techniques. If you are not good at something its gonna seem harder.
Just get good at every area of climbing and you wont have any problems.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 23, 2003, 10:57 PM
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Lucille, Trench Warfare, JCAs Wide World of Sport, Bad @ss Moma: Placing gear isn't what makes these climbs hard. It's the moves.
Generalities (which is what this thread seems to be about) are just that: generalities. Personally, I climb at about the same level whether on an offwidth, a hand crack, or an overhanging sport climb: 5.7 on a good day.
Brutus
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bradhill
Apr 23, 2003, 11:18 PM
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Eh, don't forget route finding!
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leec
Apr 24, 2003, 12:35 AM
Post #63 of 98
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Seems like many convincing arguments to change from the outdated YDS system and adopt something altogether more progressive - like the tried and tested English system. :twisted: An adjectival grade representing ALL the various factors (exposeure, strenuousness, rock quality, protection etc) in a route and an accompanying numerical grade for the pure technical difficulty.
I know R/X attempts to do this but maybe more graduation is required?
The french (yes, small f - they've not earned enything else) system gets used for sport routes that are all pretty much the same as far as safety goes.
Maybe it's time for something completely new? The sport is evolving why not the accompanying systems?
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blacksamba
Apr 26, 2003, 1:51 AM
Post #64 of 98
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dont forget Belly full of bad berries. The whole subjective grading of offwidths is a whole other topic, people say they feel harder than the grade... does that make sense, why would 5.9 feel different than 5.9. Is this some existential-thing-in-itself dillema?
also i remember when alex huber climbed the salathe and the corresponding article in climbing. it talked about how with NO trad experience Alex jumped on the test piece cracks in J-tree and the valley because they were considerably below his onsight ability.
Sure as hell sounds like it is a mental thing.
ben
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climbingcowboy
Apr 26, 2003, 5:15 AM
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I think theres a big difference in the grades due to a couple factors
style/technique and gear placement.
With me I'm pretty darn comfortable with my trad placements yet sometimes I'll get skecthed out and not want to fall on it and back down or take for ever to get up a route, where as in sport it dont matter because I know that bolt will hold. I'll lead 10s in sport but usally only lead 6-8s in trad, on TR I've made it up a couple JTree 10s.
But unlike most people I dont push myself to higher grades I just like to cruise up stuff, hell I'll just jug it I have to LOL
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xanx
Apr 26, 2003, 5:32 AM
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i think it is important to identify the point or area where inate ability kicks in... a similar thread asked how far strength alone will get you, and at what point only certain people can still progress. based on my observations (though limited...) my impression is that for bouldering, you need some special talent to get beyond the v11 range or so (give or take a grade). for sport, i would say somewhere in the .13's, probably around .13b or something - when u get into .13d and .14a, it don't matter how long you have been climbing or how hard you train, i think certain people just aren't going to be able to break through. it sounds like the .12 range is a good area for the trad equivalent... you don't hear of too many average Joe's trad leading .13a.
oh and i am not sure that i agree that if u can sport .12a u can trad .12a b/c i would think it would take longer to put in pro than to just clip a draw, so wouldn't you get much more pumped on a trad .12a than a sport .12a? i dunno if this is significant b/c if u can climb that hard it may not matter much but it would make the trad slighty harder due to endurance.
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kalcario
Apr 26, 2003, 5:45 AM
Post #67 of 98
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* oh and i am not sure that i agree that if u can sport .12a u can trad .12a b/c i would think it would take longer to put in pro than to just clip a draw, so wouldn't you get much more pumped on a trad .12a than a sport .12a?*
you are skewing it the wrong way, I think; 12a sport is the equivalent of 11c trad, given equal ability at both, is what I said...I would also say that v3=12c, v7=13c, v11=14c...
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marks
Apr 26, 2003, 8:13 AM
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i personally climb harder trad than sport.in the peak district,uk.my fav rock is gritstone,which is never bolted even the death route.90% of the limestone is bolted.gritstone is a more technical rock to climb than limestone,which is allways pull pull pull type climbing.i dont have brilliant stamina or massive crimping strentgh.so grit(trad) suits my style of climbing better.
back to the subject;in the u.k we use french grades for bolted routes and our own grade for trad(moderate-E10) with another grade to tell you the difficulty of the hardest move(3a-7b).
if in the u.s you seperated trad and sport grades you would not have this problem.
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addiroids
Apr 26, 2003, 8:57 AM
Post #69 of 98
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I personally don't see what the big hooplah is all about. If you climb and say you climb at a certain level, you shouldn't have to "justify" that based on the size of the crack or lack of crack. Be well rounded people and climbing will be much more fun. I just lead (redpoint from a lower off the weekend before) a John Long 5.10d crack in Josh but am a solid 5.10a leader. Meaning I will get up (lead) any 5.10a in the country no matter what it takes, without a fall. Not to brag, but I just believe climbing should be about climbing routes, not falling up routes. Just keep climbing and be honest in your abilities. If you only know how to clip bolts, then can you really call yourself a rock climber? Nothing against sport climbing it self, I just have a problem with sport climbers who are totally oblivious to the hard routes that have been put up many years ago that are still considered major test pieces of climbers. And yes, many are 5.9.
But to answer the question, if it is 5.12, then it should feel 5.12 for any style of climbing. If you have to ask this question, you are admitting to the inflated ratings so prevalent in sport climbing. And Joshua Tree is NOT sandbagged.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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podunkclimber
Apr 28, 2003, 2:18 PM
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To me the rating difference is probably as subjective as the question, who is the greatest climber of all time? I don't sport climb, but would probably not have a problem trying a much harder sport route than the 5.5's I currently lead trad. Why? Because it is a mental thing, and putting in your own pro adds a whole new dimension, going into the crux of a sport climb after clipping a suspect bolt probably has the same feeling. If you are curious, go try it. I'm going to try sport climging this summer if I can, and also try to go bouldering more often. Why? Because I love climbing, and while I have issues with bolting, and swarms of pad people. I believe it has more to do with ethics, than the actual practice, be kind, respectful, considerate, and climb on. Try it, don't knock it. Peace.
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holmeslovesguinness
Apr 28, 2003, 2:45 PM
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A grade is a grade is a grade. Most people coming from a sport climbing background don't have good crack technique and certainly no practice placing trad pro. Physically I don't think trad climbing is 'harder' per se than sport. But (IMHO) it definitely takes a lot more practice and commitment to get to the same comfort level while you are leading.
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lemurboy
Apr 28, 2003, 2:58 PM
Post #72 of 98
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Just climb what looks like fun...If u get into trouble plug in some pieces and build an anchor.
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bumblie
Apr 28, 2003, 3:12 PM
Post #73 of 98
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In reply to: A grade is a grade is a grade.
I guess this rationale would apply to TopRoping, too.
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bumblie
Apr 28, 2003, 3:22 PM
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At the lower grades, I think there is a two point difference between trad v. sport i.e. 5.7trad = 5.9sport. As the grades progress, the difference between the two narrows. My guess is 5.12a sport is about the same as 5.10d/5.11a trad.
To those people who say a grade is a grade, in sport climbing you get to greatly reduce the risk and effort involved in climbing into unknown territory, finding gear placements and placing the gear.
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piton
Apr 28, 2003, 4:55 PM
Post #75 of 98
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hey i lead my first trad 5.11 this weekend.. a rich romano route. :D
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