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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 4:40 PM
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I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday. Confounded the boulderers to nothing else. One guy's like, "What's the giant pack for?" I told him I didn't have a crash pad, so it would have to do.
Anyway, a lot of folks were totally entertained by me leaping off rappels with autoblocks and stuff. I never really did much practice with these things (except learn the knots) until now, and I realize the value of knowing these things and how to apply them to situations. That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
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rodeomountain
Jun 16, 2003, 5:01 PM
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I totally agree. I think everyone should learn how to self rescue before doing any serious climbing. I read up on it and tought myself but I can't seem to find anyone else that has learned or cares to learn.
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hammer_
Jun 16, 2003, 5:28 PM
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There are far to many people who climb that don't have even the most basic knoledge of self rescue technics. Last febuary two guys were climbing grade 3 ice at the Junkyards (Canmore, Canada). The leader fell about 10m and broke his leg, it was a compound fracture. Since the ice screw the leader came to rest on was around 40m up the belayer could not lower him. Niether of them knew how to escape the belay so they just sat there in that position and waited for some to wander by. Well around an hour later the leader is still hanging there and still bleeding, luckily this is a popular area and someone did come by and was able to get help. IMO nobody should be even toproping outdoors without atleast knowing how to escape a belay and I don't mean read a book and call it good, they need to do what you did and practice these technics. I don't know why people feel these technics are not important enough to learn and practice, I for one would sure hate myself if I was responsible for my partners death due to ignorance. Anyway what were you doing with the autoblock, backing up a rappel?
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 5:56 PM
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You clip an autoblock to your leg loop on the rappel extension (not above, below, on brake end) when lowering with a victim. If you let go, it ensures you brake using your friction device.
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tradclimber2
Jun 16, 2003, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday............That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I could think of MANY reasons WHY people do not at least learn some basic self-rescue techniques, most would not be very 'positive' reasons, however. Simple techniques like how to use a prussik can get you out of ALL sorts of muck-ups.
The OTHER important thing, that you mentioned, is the practice issue. How many people who HAVE taken a self-rescue class actually take time to practice regularly? My 'practice' is teaching it 2-3 times a year, and I also practice some of the techniques when outdoors. BUT, I am just an old f-rt with a very good memory (just very short) so I NEED to practice a lot. More power to those who do not need to practice. I hope they are ready when (not if) they need their skills.
Practice really does make (closer to) perfect, and does make the process more familiar which = faster and more efficient, both very important in a rescue situation.
Ben
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hammer_
Jun 16, 2003, 6:21 PM
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A Klemheist works really well for that aswell. Use caution using this sort of backup when the ropes are iced up, it tends to jam. One of my partners used an autoblock as a backup for a rappel last winter and the thing jammed so bad he had to cut it off the rope. hahaha
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paganmonkeyboy
Jun 16, 2003, 6:22 PM
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Excellent reminder - I haven't taken the book outside and run through it all in over a year. If you get the falcon press book and take it to kinkos you can get a nice coiled spring binding so it stays open and lays flat to any pages you want - tie on a string to clip it and yer all set :)
It's worth pointing out that you should try to get your climbing partners to come out and learn it with you sometime - it won't do any good if the only person that knows what they are doing is the one hanging unconcious...
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data118
Jun 16, 2003, 6:24 PM
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I bought the Self Rescue book (the Falcon Climbing Series) and was practicing on the lead wall at my gym this weekend. Taught myself how to escape a belay, and how to lower off when you're pass the halfway mark on your rope.
The more you know and practice, the better. 8)
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teagueblue
Jun 16, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Do you think professional instruction is critical for self-rescue to do it correctly? Is there an outstanding reference?
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 6:53 PM
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Professional instruction is always a good idea if you don't have anyone around you to teach you. Kind of like getting into climbing. The two outstanding references for self-rescue/first response stuff are: Falcon Guide's Self Rescue (how to series), and the Outward Bound Wilderness First Responder handbook.
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one900johnnyk
Jun 16, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: I bought the Self Rescue book (the Falcon Climbing Series) and was practicing on the lead wall at my gym this weekend. Taught myself how to escape a belay, and how to lower off when you're pass the halfway mark on your rope. The more you know and practice, the better. 8)
i just picked that one up too. i can't wait to try some of the things but i just need more time on my hands to do it.
to answer the question, i think most people don't teach themselves these things b/c they were never a boy scout. neither was i, and i was lucky, but once you're in a situation where you would love to have memorized that book cover to cover, you will. until then though, most people don't bother. i didn't....
teague: get that falcon book called Self Rescue, it's pretty easy to follow and well diagramed. no need for an instructor, if you can make yourself learn something from a book...
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teagueblue
Jun 16, 2003, 7:04 PM
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That's cool. Thanks.
How many people also really prep themselves in first aid that would be serious enough to handle real bleeding, compound fractures or stuff like that? This weekend my partner and I were thinking about all kinds of first aid scenarios and how we would handle them, while at the same time being able to get help. I must say we didn't have too many encouraging answers.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 7:31 PM
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OK, I'm not evern going to read the other posts, cause the first one scares me bad enough to just start typing now.
The reason yo don't teach yourself self rescue is because you have a fool for a teacher.
The books do not tell you everything.
The books do not tell you everything.
Did you get that?
here is is again:
The books do not tell you everything.
OK, I love good climbing books, dont't get me wrong, and I'm not trying to flame you.
BUT, rescue is something you learn best by reading the books, THEN taking a class from an real AMGA certified guide.
THEN you can practice.
I hope you backed up the stuff you wsere practicing your falls on. IN a well taught course, ther eare top rope backups on some ofhte more dangerous parts.
An auto block will block nothing if it is not set or has too few wraps on it.
Backup knots that will not keep you off the ground are worthless.
If you tie a mariner knot with too short of a sling, you may lose control of it as you try to untie and slowle realeasse the load, and instead of getting a smooth transiiotn, you could get into real trouble.
Supervision can stop you from hurting yourself in the learning process.
I hope that will convince you and anyone else to NOT teach themselves self rescue. read the book by all means, learn the knots, then shell out some cahse for professional instruction.
And before you ask, yes, all of the examples I gave are from real experience.
And ABSOLUTELY, every climber should know self and leader rescue. Congratulations for learning stuff that could save your or someone else's life.
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 9:47 PM
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Just to clarify, I HAVE had instruction. I didn't say books were be all and end all. Not going to respond to the rest of this because it wasn't all directed at me.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 10:25 PM
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When I saw the part about you "leaping off" rappells, I went into UH-OH mode, sorry.
Yarding down, bouncing down and speed rapping with sudden stops are all BAD. I'd put leaping off in that same category.
Someone else posted that they rap very slowly, to the point that it irritated their partner. Rappelling is dangerous, and putting the system under more force than body weight is not a good idea.
The auto block, or some other backup, is not just for rescue work. If you have seen those posts that start off, "So-and-so lost control of their rappell, and now they are a) dead, b) seriously injured, you'll start thinking that always backing up your rappell is a good idea.
I can think of at least three bad rappell accidents that happened recently where an auto block set correctly would have saved 2 lives and one long hospital stay.
I'm not picking on you Maculated. Just don't want to see you become masticated hehe.
As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 10:33 PM
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I tend to phrase stuff hyperbolically. I had an anchor going from the ground clove hitched and then running through a bomber nut. The 'leaping' I did was maybe three feet off the deck. There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out. I told you the boulderers were entertained. I just wanted to see where they sat at.
>As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the >book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
True that. I would never advocate someone learn to climb from the "How to Rock Climb" series. Its a good supplement, but nothing like field work.
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tradclimber2
Jun 16, 2003, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
Dirt, you are so correct here. Some people CAN pick up a book, read thru it, understand it, and then do the stuff presented just fine. These people also can pick up a musical instrument and instantly start playing. I am SOOO envious of those people. But fortunately, these people are very few and far between. Most of us do good to try and figure out the instruction books for our VCR/DVD's. Having someone (someone COMPETENT, that is) TEACH you the skills is absolutely a must - unless you fall in that SMALL category I mentioned above. THEN, use the book as a reference and refresher. Practice practice practice. Then hope beyond all hope that you never ever have to use the skills you learned. Come on folks, dish out some of that money you have burning in your pockets and take a GOOD self-rescue class with good references from prior students. The extra #5 Camalot can wait a few more months.
Ben
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bsafe
Jun 17, 2003, 1:00 AM
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The 6 P's:
Plenty of practice prevents piss poor performance
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jammin
Jun 17, 2003, 11:24 AM
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I wasa involved in a rescue about a year ago. My friend and I were climbing and next to us some dude fell and knocked himself out. When the belayer tried to lower him he ended up on a ledge. My friend and I grabbed our gear ran over and essentailly rescued his partner for him. So many people were standing around not knowing what to do. It was pathetic. Learn to rescue. A descent course will be a day and a half to two days and will probably be the bet investment you'll ever do in climbing.
THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
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tradclimber2
Jun 18, 2003, 12:55 AM
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In reply to: THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
hmmm, Sounds like the makins of a great song! Maybe change the title just a bit........................ :)
Good going, jammin. You can climb next to me anytime.
Ben
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kevlar
Jun 18, 2003, 4:06 PM
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what is the going rate to teach self rescue???
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sharpie
Jun 18, 2003, 4:36 PM
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If anybody is in the Denver area, the Mountain Miser at Broadway and Hampton is giving a free self-resuce clinic tonight (June 18th) at 7:30p.
http://mountainmiser.com/news.shtml
:wink:
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dirtineye
Jun 18, 2003, 4:44 PM
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The rate around the south is around 150 a day, but it is a full day, with total hands on work, a knot class the night before, and at least one instructor per leader/belayer pair. Taught by AMGA certified guide. You get a discount for two days.
Check out the challenge school in atlanta, they're on the web.
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pico23
Jun 19, 2003, 1:49 AM
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In reply to: That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I have taught myself and my partner. It's all quite simple once you learn to escape the belay with a releasable knot. Beyond that you just use the rest of your trad climbing skills (anchors, prussiking, rappelling). Not that hard but it looks it in the self rescue book. Just break it down and learn it.
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