I was told recently the the petzl grigri is not a self locking device. this had me worried because i used the grugri every week to self belay and was wondering if anyone knew about a accident realting to the grigri.
(no i was not being dumb and ignoring the instructions just ignorant, the instructor had told me to use it the way i did.)

As you can tell alot of folk's just don't read the post the same way others do. The gri-gri is a great sport belay device, when you rule out human error, butit is very dangerouse for self belay. Due to the nature of the self belay the slake end of the rope (the part you would normaly have in you'r brake hand) could cross over the top of the cam and hold it in the open position(just like when you have to throw your climber a mile of slake to make a clip so you keep it closed with your finger) Only use a device that is intended for self belay.

I was told recently the the petzl grigri is not a self locking device. this had me worried because i used the grugri every week to self belay and was wondering if anyone knew about a accident realting to the grigri.
(no i was not being dumb and ignoring the instructions just ignorant, the instructor had told me to use it the way i did.)

I was told recently the the petzl grigri is not a self locking device.

......the instructor had told me to use it the way i did.)

Grigri's are pretty safe (depends on who is using it really) but they are not intended for self belaying. You may want to consider a device that is specifically designed for soloing/self-belaying.

You must tie backup knots. Very important.
You must fall upright, or modify the device so if you fall inverted it does not cross load the carabiner. Very important.
You must rig it correctly every time. Very important.

Grigri's are safe so long as you don't have to worry about impact forces on the protection. Don't use a Grigri for belaying a trad leader because the device allows very little rope to feed through it when the cam locks up. On the surface this might seem like a blessing since it can save you rope burn on your brake hand but in reality, the extra few inches of rope that feeds through a tube, munter, plate, etc provides a more dynamic belay thus lessening the impact forces on the whole system.
I have a grigri but only use it for newbies who I don't trust to keep their brake hand where its suppose to be and I never use it for trad.

:roll:

.....we must takes many variables into consideration. I think what you are hinting at is the question of a static belay, implying that a tuber style belay device like a Reverso, ATC, or Sherriff is somehow dynamic, or absorbs energy when braking, more so than a Grigri. The false notion that this lack of energy absorption somehow makes the Grigri less safe or suitable for only certain types of climbing (sport) is a thought, unfortunately, that many climbers have. Well this idea is just that - a false notion - meaning not true. Any tuber style belay device locks up as sharply and quickly as the Grigri if properly used.
......Energy absorption can be taken into account on climbs where the pro is sketchy in a variety of ways. First is your rope; the chief duty of energy absorption lies with this important piece of equipment. Climbing on an old tattered rope can largely increase the peak force felt on your highest piece. Shock absorbing lanyards like the Petzl Nitro or a Yates Screamer can be employed to limit peak force on a shoddy piece of gear. Using long runners or placing gear to avoid drag enables the full amount of paid out rope to be used in energy absorption (typically the larger the fall the softer it is because there is more rope to absorb the energy). Finally, the belayer's braking technique can greatly dissipate peak force energy, by jumping or springing upwards toward the first piece at the moment of impact. There are many other factors that determine the peak force felt by your highest piece of protection: the other pieces of gear, rope drag, friction on the rock as well as all the carabiners, weight of the belayer, distance of the fall, and the amount of rope paid out. With all that said I believe the belay device to be one of the least important links in the chain of energy absorption. I am sorry that we do not have any hard data to illustrate these ideas more clearly.

......our technical notice that is sold with the Grigri officially points out that this device was developed for gym use and well protected sport routes only. We do understand that climbers have taken certain liberties with equipment and developed applications outside of the parameters of its initially intended use.

Nothing is totally idiot proof.

The grigri is positively the most unsafe device ever. IN fact, just having one in the same climbing area guarantees a fall. If you have one, you should send it to me, and I will dispose fo it for you.

((petzl reply))

Yes, if used properly, it is safe, just like an ATC, a figure 8, a munter hitch, or a hip belay.

If used correctly it's way safer than the ATC, figure 8. munter hitch and hip belay. Even if you use the other things properly there are way more things that can go wrong with them than when using a gri gri. No matter how attentive you are you're bound to lose attention or get distracted for even a fraction of a second and with the other systems it could have great consequences. With the gri gri it's pretty safe.

I know of two people who have taken long falls while rapping on thin lines (~8-9mm) with a grigri. One ended in broken bones.

From what I know, it works as a self-belay on fat lines (10mm+) but is not billed as such.
Jeff

To put it simply, that is total BS.

Curt

No it's not.

Yes it is. Haha, how long do you think this pissing contest can go on?

Curt

Yes it is. Haha, how long do you think this pissing contest can go on?

Curt

If used correctly it's way safer than the ATC, figure 8. munter hitch and hip belay. Even if you use the other things properly there are way more things that can go wrong with them than when using a gri gri. No matter how attentive you are you're bound to lose attention or get distracted for even a fraction of a second and with the other systems it could have great consequences. With the gri gri it's pretty safe.

When all is said and done I would rather be belayed by a beginner with a grigri then a begginer with an atc. (in a situation where i might fall anyway)

Only a poor workman blames his tools. The Gri-Gri can easily instill a false sense of safety in an incompetent belayer. This can have dire consequences. A belayer is either competent (i.e. safe) or he/she is not. End of story. The device used has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Curt

Yeah but I'd rather have a competent belayer using a gri-gri than a competent user using an atc. I'm not comparing an incompetent gri-gri user with a competent user on an atc. That wouldn't be a fair comparison. If I had a competent user on a gri-gri I'm pretty certain nothing will go wrong. I'm not as sure nothing will go wrong with a competent user on an atc.

You might have to read this a couple of times to get what I'm saying.

But Dan, wouldn't you first determine that this "beginner" knows the basics of belaying before allowing him/her to belay you? I know you would. And in that case, the belay device just doesn't matter.

Curt

I have met people who have been climbing for a long time who I wouldn't let belay me on a climb I could fall on with a grigri or an atc.

I am paranoid about my belayers in situations where I might fall, and the number of people who inspire confidence as a belayer is rather limited.

As my comprehension is pretty good, I only had to read it once. You are clearly either:

1) an idiot.
or
2) a total n00b climber with no experience whatsoever.

Curt

Yeah but I'd rather have a competent belayer using a gri-gri than a competent user using an atc. I'm not comparing an incompetent gri-gri user with a competent user on an atc. That wouldn't be a fair comparison. If I had a competent user on a gri-gri I'm pretty certain nothing will go wrong. I'm not as sure nothing will go wrong with a competent user on an atc.

Right. So, I don't think we are in disagreement here. It is the person you trust rather than the belay device--correct?

Curt

If I had a competent user on a gri-gri I'm pretty certain nothing will go wrong. I'm not as sure nothing will go wrong with a competent user on an atc.

Conversely, a belayer who knows what he/she is doing will be just as safe using any other belay device--or with no belay device for that matter, as in the waist belay. This is just a fact. I really don't see how you can argue this point.

Curt

Now I know anyone can come up with a situation or a statistic that will support their claim, regardless of the validity of the claim. Glass is half empty/half full kind of thing. But the question is whether a Grigri, when used correctly, is inherently safer than an ATC.

There is a simple answer to that question in my mind. If you release the dead end of the rope with your right hand and your leader/top-roper falls at the same time, what will happen if you are using a Grigri vs. ATC? What will happen if you take out the HUMAN factor?

Exactly how did I fail in eliminating the Human Factor in my example?

i like being belayed by a gri gri but hate belaying with one on a sport climb. and only use them when i have a unexperinced climber belaying me.

I work at a climbing wall, and we use gri gri's. I have seen one fail.