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climb_plastic
Oct 14, 2003, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: As my comprehension is pretty good, I only had to read it once. You are clearly either: 1) an idiot. or 2) a total n00b climber with no experience whatsoever. Curt
Oops sorry...you took that last comment incorrectly. I didn't mean just "you" personally. I meant that anyone reading it might get confused because I said "competent" a few too many times. When I read it I even had to read it a couple times to make sure it made sense.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 14, 2003, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: Yeah but I'd rather have a competent belayer using a gri-gri than a competent user using an atc. I'm not comparing an incompetent gri-gri user with a competent user on an atc. That wouldn't be a fair comparison. If I had a competent user on a gri-gri I'm pretty certain nothing will go wrong. I'm not as sure nothing will go wrong with a competent user on an atc.
This attitude is the major downside to a grigri. That fact is, if you believe this your level of confidence is influenced by the use of a grigri. In other words your more likely to be comfortable with a given belayer with a grigri whereas you might question his competence with an atc.
This is exactly why so many people get dropped with a grigri.
The fact of the matter is if you cannot belay safely with an atc, you cannot belay safely with a grigri. Just to confuse things more, being able to safely belay with an atc doesn't guarantee a good belay with a grigri.
No, I don't feel this contradicts my post above.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 14, 2003, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I have met people who have been climbing for a long time who I wouldn't let belay me on a climb I could fall on with a grigri or an atc. I am paranoid about my belayers in situations where I might fall, and the number of people who inspire confidence as a belayer is rather limited. Right. So, I don't think we are in disagreement here. It is the person you trust rather than the belay device--correct? Curt
With a trustworthy belayer it wouldn't make any difference what kind of device they used. (There is an exception for a really steep hard climb where I need the belayer to jumg a long ways)
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curt
Oct 14, 2003, 4:11 AM
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Well, your comments that I take issue with are:
In reply to: If I had a competent user on a gri-gri I'm pretty certain nothing will go wrong. I'm not as sure nothing will go wrong with a competent user on an atc.
Curt
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climb_plastic
Oct 14, 2003, 4:19 AM
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In reply to: Conversely, a belayer who knows what he/she is doing will be just as safe using any other belay device--or with no belay device for that matter, as in the waist belay. This is just a fact. I really don't see how you can argue this point. Curt
OK this discussion doesn't seem like it will go anywhere. You believe that a belayer that knows what he is doing is as safe using any device as a belayer that knows what his is doing on a gri-gri. You're probably right...I'm not saying that I don't trust the guy using the atc but I'd still trust the guy on the gri-gri more.
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apollodorus
Oct 14, 2003, 5:48 AM
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MrHardGrit used a Gri for soloing on Eagles Way on El Cap, and broke the biner in a fall. The Gri wasn't at fault, but it reinforces the need to use back-up knots tied in the rope. My guess is that the biner was loaded off-axis, something you can't control in the real world.
Tie into the end of the rope, and tie overhand knots and clip them to you as you go up. The only single piece you should rely on is the rope. Everywhere else you should have two or three.
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apollodorus
Oct 14, 2003, 6:13 AM
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If the Gri is used with fat (10-11mm) ropes, it's a great device.
Thinner ropes will not lock off properly, due to the way it's designed.
Don't try it.
The manufacturer's cheat sheet says 10 or 11mm ropes only.
The Gri doesn't have the rope-diameter bandwidth of, say, the Jumar. It's design necessitates rope of a smaller range. A jumar, by comparison, can work with ropes from 7 to 11 mm. But, the jumar has teeth, and a different cam design. The Gri's cam is intened to work with pure friction with a smooth cam over a smaller range of rope diameters.
The Gri works great over the range of ropes for which it's designed for.
Don't try to extend that range, ad hoc, because your rope is smaller.
Use an ATC if your rope is outside the range specified by the Gri manufacturer. Those things are much more forgiving, in terms of rope diameter.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 14, 2003, 6:38 AM
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Petzl web site actually say's that a 9.7 is all right.
Many people belay sport climbs with even smaller ropes (9.4) on sport climbs and with the proper use of the device. I am not recommending that people do this, just relaying the reality.
btw: the guy that said he doesn't believe the cam on a grigri wears out is full of it. Petzl recommends a test to determine this condition, I wonder why.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 14, 2003, 7:45 AM
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Strider
I would basically agree with everything you wrote.
I would offer this observation in addendum though.
I have seen and heard about way more people being dropped with a grigri then with an atc, this is despite the fact that the majority of belays that I have been around were done with an atc type device. Admitedly a lot of this can be atrributed to changes in the climbing community, but not all of it.
also as far as tests on the grigri, on page two of this thread there are two more links in one of my posts to studies done on a grigri besides the rei test
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curt
Oct 15, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: Now I know anyone can come up with a situation or a statistic that will support their claim, regardless of the validity of the claim. Glass is half empty/half full kind of thing. But the question is whether a Grigri, when used correctly, is inherently safer than an ATC.
In reply to: There is a simple answer to that question in my mind. If you release the dead end of the rope with your right hand and your leader/top-roper falls at the same time, what will happen if you are using a Grigri vs. ATC? What will happen if you take out the HUMAN factor?
Curt
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strider
Oct 15, 2003, 1:47 AM
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Curt sez:
Why didn't you add "when used correctly" at the end of your statement--in reference to the ATC?
I didn't do that on purpose. The ATC still needs to be used correctly. Isn't that kind of self evident? There are certainly ways to improperly use an ATC. What was the point of your question?
Curt also sez:
There are plenty of ways for what you are calling the human factor to enter into improper Gri-gri operation as well. So, you are hardly eliminating the human factor with your example. If anything you are reinforcing my point that the belayer is more critical to good belaying than the device is.
Exactly how did I fail in eliminating the Human Factor in my example? Yes, the Grigri needs to be set-up correctly, as does the ATC. So if you leave each device alone to do it's job without human interaction with the device then you will find that the Grigri's job is automatically grab the rope whereas the ATC's is to let the slide right through the device. And you are right, the belayer is ABSOLUTELY MORE CRITCAL to good belaying than the device. I guess you didn't read my post carefully because I never said it wasn't. What I am saying is that device in and of itself is safer than an ATC.
Please try to argue more effectively next time.
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curt
Oct 15, 2003, 1:54 AM
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strider,
In reply to: Exactly how did I fail in eliminating the Human Factor in my example?
Curt
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jt512
Oct 15, 2003, 4:25 PM
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My two cents: In the hands of a competent user the gri-gri is marginally safer than an ATC. A competent belayer will, by definition, be able to catch a fall with either device. Competent belayers don't take their brake hand off the rope with an ATC. Competent belayers do get distracted, but they can still catch a fall, even if caught off guard. The extra safety from the gri-gri comes down to this: if your belayer gets taken out by rockfall, you have a better chance of still being on belay with a grigri than with an ATC.
What about in the hands of an incompetent belayer? Empirical, though informal, evidence seems to suggest that the ATC may be safer, as paradoxical as that may seem. As Dan mentioned, there seem to be more accidents with gri-gris than with ATCs. I'd put the ratio at about 3:1, despite the fact that ATCs are the more common type of belay device.
I am convinced that > 99% of grigri accidents occur because the belayer interferes with the proper functioning of the device, either by holding the cam open or by hanging onto the leader's side of the rope instead of the brake side. The latter action reduces the tension in the rope, preventing the cam from locking. These errors can occur because normal use of the grigri involves letting go of the brake side of the rope to hold the cam open in order to feed slack when the leader needs to clip. Incompetent users then fail to put their hand back on the brake side of the rope, setting the stage for an accident. Operation of the ATC, in contrast, is simpler. The brake hand never leaves the rope, and the belayer need only move his hand into the braking position to arrest the fall.
New grigri users must learn to take their brake hand off the cam and replace it on the brake side of the rope the instant that they've pulled out enough slack for the leader to clip. It is not so much that the brake hand is needed to lock off the rope (though under some circumstances it is), but that when it is on the brake side of the rope, it can't interfere with the device's autolocking function. No one should belay with a grigri until they have learned to return their brake hand to the correct side of the rope reflexively. This applies both to beginning climbers and to experienced climbers who are used to belaying with an ATC. I know of at least one serious accident in which a long-time climber dropped her partner because she was not sufficiently trained in safe usage of the grigri.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 15, 2003, 4:35 PM
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That is a great explanation of why I wouldn't say a grigri is safer than an atc in general use.
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static_climber
Oct 15, 2003, 5:03 PM
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i like being belayed by a gri gri but hate belaying with one on a sport climb. and only use them when i have a unexperinced climber belaying me.
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jt512
Oct 15, 2003, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: i like being belayed by a gri gri but hate belaying with one on a sport climb. and only use them when i have a unexperinced climber belaying me.
I think you should (re-)read my post.
-Jay
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static_climber
Oct 15, 2003, 6:06 PM
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jay i never read ur post but i dont let unexperienced climbers belay me on sport climbs only on tr
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rockclimber412
Oct 16, 2003, 6:03 AM
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I work at a climbing wall, and we use gri gri's. I have seen one fail. It would not even lock up any more, the rope would just slide through. I think they can be dangerous if not properly cared for, and after continuous hard usage. just inspect it before you use it especially once it gets some age on it
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climb_plastic
Oct 16, 2003, 6:40 AM
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In reply to: I work at a climbing wall, and we use gri gri's. I have seen one fail.
I think if your gym used atc instead of gri gri you probably would have seen more than just one failure at your gym. I can't say that for sure though because I haven't seen stats on it but I do know some gyms have switched to gri gri because of falls and will likely never switch back even though they're not cheap.
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micahmcguire
Oct 16, 2003, 8:09 AM
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nothing about climbing is idiot-proof, but with a bit of understanding; yes the gri-gri is safe
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