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jr
Nov 3, 2003, 1:11 AM
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I was wondering if it was safe to place place pro in horizontal cracks? I vaguely remember hearing that pro is only supposed to be placed in vertical cracks. Reason I ask is that there are some sweet cliffs nearby with trad-potential, but most of the cracks are not vertical.
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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2003, 1:26 AM
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Depends on the placement, and the gear.
As a general rule, I consider horizontal placements to be less reliable than vertical placements. Nuts often require opposition or other advanced skills. However, Flex-stem Cams are better than the old, forged-stem cams, particularly in shallow horizontal placements, and Tricams can be quite good in horizontal placements and pockets.
If you have questions about this, get some hands-on instruction from a competent person rather than betting your life on an unfamiliar skill set.
Brutus
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one900johnnyk
Nov 3, 2003, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: Depends on the placement, and the gear. As a general rule, I consider horizontal placements to be less reliable than vertical placements. Nuts often require opposition or other advanced skills. However, Flex-stem Cams are better than the old, forged-stem cams, particularly in shallow horizontal placements, and Tricams can be quite good in horizontal placements and pockets. If you have questions about this, get some hands-on instruction from a competent person rather than betting your life on an unfamiliar skill set. Brutus
i'd agree w/that...
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neutralcypruss
Nov 3, 2003, 1:45 AM
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8) Tri-cams are awesome in horizontal cracks..
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asaph
Nov 3, 2003, 2:39 AM
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tri-cams are just awesome. period.
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cobra652004
Nov 3, 2003, 2:54 AM
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Horizontal cracks are fine. Just like placing pro anywhere else, though, you have to be sure what you're doing is solid. If you still think they are unsafe, NEVER EVER go to the Gunks. (But they are)
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afiveonbelay
Nov 3, 2003, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: If you still think they are unsafe, NEVER EVER go to the Gunks.
placing gear in horizontals is dangerous, very dangerous. don't go to the gunks don't go to the gunks don't go to the gunks :twisted:
actually placing cams, hexes, and tri-cams in horizontals is fine and just as reliable and safe as verticals. If you fall on a cam, the wires may be bent or kinked but if it holds and keeps you safe and has to be retired, it's less the cost of a ski lift ticket. (in some places) :wink:
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jimdavis
Nov 4, 2003, 12:12 AM
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Place your cam's as deep as is safe, that way you hopefully won't be bending them as much in a fall. Most all modern cams are ment to flex over horozontal placements, but it will kink and damage the cables over time, so try and avoid it. Same goes with nuts and other wired gear. Tri-cams with their webbing don't matter as much though.
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piton
Nov 4, 2003, 2:14 PM
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you want to place cams with the outside cams down.
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gbschmitt
Nov 4, 2003, 3:04 PM
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Horizontal cracks often offer good gear placements. Make sure to use flexible stem cams. Tricams and Hexentrics are good too if you know how to place them properly. Nuts are a little more tricky but you can get some good placements by sliding them sideways to a spot where the crack narrows but make sure it doesn't get wiggled out by rope action. They also can be a pain to retrieve for your second. Whatever you do, make sure that the carabiner into which you clip the rope does not bend over the edge but extend the placement with a long sling so the carabiner dangles freely below the edge.
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ericfrommichigan
Nov 4, 2003, 3:17 PM
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Just getting back into trad after a pretty long downtime but my memory serves me that I had some awesome placements with my good ol' Forged Friends in horizontals. Just get them as far in and Bomber as possible and the trick being to tie of a cordellette sling on the forward tie off holes, this way you have a forward point to clip from if clipping to the supplied rearward sling would allow to much force on the rigid shaft. Just my $0.02.
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trillium
Nov 4, 2003, 3:24 PM
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As mentioned earlier, if you have a fear of placing pro in horizontal cracks then avoid climbing at the Gunks. Horizontals are everywhere. Tricams and Hexes hold very well (extend with a sling so they don't wiggle out), and Flexible stemmed SLCDs are very safe when placed correctly. Avoid shallow/flared cracks and be aware of where your carabiner hangs. (If you are unsure about placement then read John Long's Climbing Anchors.) Happy Horizontal Climbing!
Trillium
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gunkiemike
Nov 4, 2003, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down.
Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly".
Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story.
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petsfed
Nov 4, 2003, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: ...Make sure to use flexible stem cams...
Actually, with the old "Gunks tieoff" as mentioned above, you get a better, stronger placement than with a flexible stem unit (from John Long's book so there you go). Know the limitations of your gear rather than the limitations of the rock. With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything.
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piton
Nov 4, 2003, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story.
mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk.
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fredo
Nov 4, 2003, 9:43 PM
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Tri-Cams or Aliens :D
Rock On!
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gbschmitt
Nov 5, 2003, 2:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...Make sure to use flexible stem cams... Actually, with the old "Gunks tieoff" as mentioned above, you get a better, stronger placement than with a flexible stem unit (from John Long's book so there you go). Know the limitations of your gear rather than the limitations of the rock. With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything.
I don't think the placement is stronger because it mainly depends on the action of the camming units. I don't dispute the need to tie off rigid stem units properly, but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem). As you said, know the limitations of your gear, but don't forget the rock - if you place your cams in a sanding crack, your placement is almost worthless, no matter whether flexible or rigid.
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trillium
Nov 5, 2003, 2:27 PM
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gbschmitt wrote:
"With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything."
Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing.
Trillium
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buckyllama
Nov 5, 2003, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: ...but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem).
Oh really? Jardine's original cams were fairly similar to modern forged friends. The only significant difference being some annodization and milled cam stops. Before that they were a hodge-podge of things ranging from ideas similar to the modern forged friends, to simple strap steel wrapped around the axle for a stem. He toyed with flexable stems and dual stem cams a little bit and abandoned them. He claims it was because they were a substandard design from an engineering standpoint. But I say that's BS. I just think that they were more expensive, more of a pain to make, and heavier (all true).
I also generally prefer flexable stem cams for many uses, but forged friends do have the advantage still that they are very lightweight, cheap, and virtually indestructable. With a gunks tie-off they are the best thing out there for horizontal placements. The tie-off being close to the head means they don't walk, and are stronger than a flex-cam over an edge.
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yomomma
Nov 5, 2003, 4:24 PM
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I'm liking my hexes for horizontals.
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brutusofwyde
Nov 5, 2003, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing.
Potter's Rock, Sonora Pass -- Low Balls, 5.10R Climb the arete to the left of Cut Corner. Offset Aliens, Ball Nutz and HB Offset brass nuts are strongly recommended.
Brutus
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petsfed
Nov 5, 2003, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: gbschmitt wrote: "With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything." Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing. Trillium
My apologies, would you prefer courage? We lack an androgenous slang term in the american vernacular to most accurately present what I'm trying to say. Perhaps in the future my knuckles won't drag so much in your presence.
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gunkiemike
Nov 5, 2003, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story. mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk.
And why is that exactly?
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piton
Nov 6, 2003, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story. mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk. And why is that exactly?
because that’s what i've been told; is that good enough for you!
plus if you look at it in a physics way.
if you place the inner cams down you have less distance between the cams then if the outer cams are placed down: agree?
Ok, so here is a little experiment for you. take 2 music cd covers (or books whatever you have) place them 1 inch apart and place another on top lying across the 2. do the same thing but place them 3 inches apart. which one is more stable??????? which one will wobble around easier????
maybe someone else can help out here and provide info for or against.
thanks
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gbschmitt
Nov 6, 2003, 2:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem). Oh really? Jardine's original cams were fairly similar to modern forged friends.... .... With a gunks tie-off they are the best thing out there for horizontal placements. The tie-off being close to the head means they don't walk, and are stronger than a flex-cam over an edge.
Yes the cams that Jardine eventually made had a rigid stem after he was persuaded that his original flexible stem design was inferior.
I would argue that a steel cable is stronger over and edge than a sling because it is more resistant to abrasion and shearing...lots of horizontals cracks in the Gunks have pretty sharp edges.
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ericfrommichigan
Nov 6, 2003, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: I would argue that a steel cable is stronger over and edge than a sling because it is more resistant to abrasion and shearing...lots of horizontals cracks in the Gunks have pretty sharp edges.
I would agree here that Cable is stronger and less likely to get sawed by the edges, but if you properly place a forged friend with the "Gunks Tie-Off" being placed where it should be, not running over the edge, but hanging straight down from the rigid shaft as close in to the edge as appropriate, this will not be a concern. If the "Gunks Tie-Off" is running from inside the crack over the edge and down, then you most likely should be using the supplied sling or a "Tie-Off" mid-way up the stem, and not the tie-off that would cause the edge drag condition..
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brutusofwyde
Nov 6, 2003, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And why is that exactly? because that’s what i've been told; is that good enough for you! plus if you look at it in a physics way. if you place the inner cams down you have less distance between the cams then if the outer cams are placed down: agree? Ok, so here is a little experiment for you. take 2 music cd covers (or books whatever you have) place them 1 inch apart and place another on top lying across the 2. do the same thing but place them 3 inches apart. which one is more stable??????? which one will wobble around easier???? maybe someone else can help out here and provide info for or against.
Music CD covers are not part of a semi-rigid, spring loaded protection system. Walking of cams is far better dealt with by using sufficient runner length.
Far more important than cam orientation vs. walking is the specific individual details of your protection system, the nature of the rock, and shape of the placement. If the placement dictates wide cams up. place the cam so. If the placement dictates wide cams down, place it so. A similar argument raged a few years back regarding stinger orientation for tricams.
As usual, It Depends.
Brutus
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rgold
Nov 16, 2003, 6:10 PM
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I'd like to reinforce petsfed's comment. When outfitted with tie-off loops, rigid stem Friends are superior to all flexible stem cams in horizontal cracks and are the pro of choice for horizontal cam placements. Not only is the holding power significantly greater than what you can expect form flexible stem cams in horizontal or vertical cracks, the durability of the piece is far greater.
In order to realize the superiority of tied-off rigid stems, the cam must be placed so that the tie-off sling hangs flush with the cliff face. Experience in the Gunks indicates that this is possible in almost all placements, the main problem being not shallow placements but rather placements that are too deep.
The reason rigid stems, placed with the tie-off loop flush, are so markedly superior in horizontal placements is that only a small fraction of the downward force resolves into an outward (cam extracting) component, whereas a flexible stem converts almost all the downward force into an extracting force.
Of course, placing a rigid-stem cam in a shallow horizontal crack and clipping the end of the stem will result in the stem breaking in a moderate fall. I've seen one such breakage in an eight-foot fall with 40-50 feet of rope out.
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andypro
Nov 16, 2003, 8:24 PM
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Whoops. Nevermind. Was too slow on the draw and about 5 posts staked up regarding my quesiton. :lol:
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jeffvoigt
Nov 24, 2003, 6:52 AM
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Yes you want to place the cam so that the outside lobes are down. This generally gives the cam a more stable base, resulting in less walking. if in doubt lenthen the sling a little or add a second piece close to the first.
http://www.climbingjunky.com
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robmcc
Nov 24, 2003, 7:51 AM
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In reply to: gbschmitt wrote: "With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything." Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing. Trillium
Funny how gender biases the way we read things. You read that and note (quite correctly) that you don't need balls to climb.
I read it, cringe, and think how balls and duct tape should almost never, ever be used together.
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robmcc
Nov 24, 2003, 7:51 AM
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In reply to: gbschmitt wrote: "With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything." Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing. Trillium
Funny how gender biases the way we read things. You read that and note (quite correctly) that you don't need balls to climb.
I read it, cringe, and think how balls and duct tape should almost never, ever be used together.
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phyreman
Nov 24, 2003, 2:00 PM
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Almost!?
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reno
Nov 24, 2003, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: I'd like to reinforce petsfed's comment. When outfitted with tie-off loops, rigid stem Friends are superior to all flexible stem cams in horizontal cracks and are the pro of choice for horizontal cam placements. Not only is the holding power significantly greater than what you can expect form flexible stem cams in horizontal or vertical cracks, the durability of the piece is far greater.
The biggest problem, IMHO, with tying off a rigid Friend is the limitation of single aspect placement.
To make sure we're talking about the same thing, a "Gunks Tie-off" refers to using a lengthof cord, slipping it through the stem near the cam lobes, and tying a knot -- Double or Triple Fisherman's (Fisherperson's??) -- then placing the cam in a horizontal crack... are we on the same page here??
If so, then you can only place the cam such that the cord is BELOW the wires from the trigger to the cam lobes (i.e. wider lobes DOWN only, or wider lobes UP only.) Doing otherwise runs the risk of having the cord compress the cam wires during a fall, and causing the whole piece to fail.
Personally, I don't like to limit my gear in such a fashion... I prefer to be able to put the wider lobes in whatever position they work best (and, FYI, I do NOT agree with "piton" posting of wide lobes down always... this is B.S.) Hence, I'll use a Flex-stem cam, or more likely, a Tri-Cam.
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piton
Nov 24, 2003, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: (and, FYI, I do NOT agree with "piton" posting of wide lobes down always... this is B.S.)
you got me! just exactly why i wanted to post here to B.S. everyone :roll:
i thought i agreed with gunkiemike that if the outer lobe placement is better up than place it that way. if it doesn't matter then place the outer lobes down. take it with a grain of salt "reno"
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rgold
Nov 25, 2003, 7:31 PM
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Reno is right about the Gunks tie-off determining cam orientation in horizontal cracks. I happen to rig mine so the wide cams are placed down, but I doubt that there is any significant difference. After 25+ years of stuffing cams into horizontal placements, I have never found cam orientation to be a serious issue. In any case, what little difference orientation might make is overwhelmed by the higher holding power and increased durability of tied off rigid stems in horizontal cracks. In other words, the tied-off rigid stem placement is going to be stronger than the flexible stem placement no matter which way the flexible stem's cams are oriented.
By the way, rigid stems work fine in vertical cracks too. Flexible stems are a little more versatile and require a little less thought to place, but their advantages are, in my opinion, way oversold.
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dirtineye
Nov 25, 2003, 8:42 PM
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As a recovering math/physics person who climbs, I'd like to attempt (doomed to fail) to put the "outside cam lobes down is more stable", argument to rest from a PHSYCAL view.
OK, so now think about your cam stuck in a horizontal crack. The springs in the cam are pusing against the lobes which are pushing against the top and bottom of the crack. Two lobes push up, two push down. The cam axel is rigid, right? to displace the cam, all lobes must change position. Since all lobes (assuming you did place the cam properly, with the lobes extended symatrically) are pushing out with equal force, and since all lobes must change position for the cam to move, it makes no difference if the outer lobes are up or down.
What does matter, as several people have pointed out, is a good fit. The same sort of argument works for tri-cams.
Why some people thiink the outside lobes shoudl be down might be because we are used to thinking about gravity holding stuff in place, and a wider base is better in that case. But notice, it a horisontal crack, gravity is not doing much, rather the springs in the cam are pushing the lobes up and down with equal (in magnitude) force, and there is an equal and opposite normal force pushing back against the lobes from the top and bottom of the crack (otherwise the cam would be digging into the rock or the rock would be crushing the cam)
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squish
Nov 27, 2003, 5:32 AM
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In reply to: Yes you want to place the cam so that the outside lobes are down. This generally gives the cam a more stable base, resulting in less walking.
This is patently false. Cams aren't wobbly chairs, CD cases or houses of cards or what have you. They are not going to fall over in a horizontal crack.
Cams are held in place by spring tension on the cams, and whether the wide end is on the top or bottom makes far less difference to the placement than any other consideration.
If anything, the outer lobes are the ones doing the majority of the walking. The inner lobes serve as a pivot.
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fng
Nov 27, 2003, 6:15 AM
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I'M FAIRLY NEW TO TRAD CLIMBING AND TRY TO LEARN FROM EVERYONE I CLIMB WITH. I WAS SHOWN BY ONE GUY I CLIMBED WITH THAT IN HORIZONTAL CRACKS YOU COULD USE TWO NUTS, ONE ON EACH SIDE OF YOU AS FAR APART AS YOU COULD SAFELY PLACE, AND RIG THEM SO THEY WOULD PULL AGAINST EACH OTHER MORE THAN DOWN SO THAT IN THEORY IT WAS LIKE USING TWO NUTS IN A VERTICAL CRACK. I HAVE USED THIS BEFORE AND IT FELT SOLID AND SAFE. ANYONE HAVE ANY OPINION.
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reno
Nov 27, 2003, 5:22 PM
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FNG:
You're talking about placing nuts in opposition. This technique, like all others, has advantages and disadvantages. It may be useful, but many times it might be easier to just place a cam or a tri-cam as has been discussed throughout this thread.
Oh, and a friendly suggestiopn? Don't use all capital letters when typing to a forum board such as this. It's the cyber-equivalent of shouting, and is considered rude. I'm sure you didn't intend this, so no hard feelings.
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adamtd
Nov 27, 2003, 7:24 PM
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read "Climbing Anchors" by John Long, or "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills"
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