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jr
Nov 3, 2003, 1:11 AM
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I was wondering if it was safe to place place pro in horizontal cracks? I vaguely remember hearing that pro is only supposed to be placed in vertical cracks. Reason I ask is that there are some sweet cliffs nearby with trad-potential, but most of the cracks are not vertical.
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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2003, 1:26 AM
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Depends on the placement, and the gear.
As a general rule, I consider horizontal placements to be less reliable than vertical placements. Nuts often require opposition or other advanced skills. However, Flex-stem Cams are better than the old, forged-stem cams, particularly in shallow horizontal placements, and Tricams can be quite good in horizontal placements and pockets.
If you have questions about this, get some hands-on instruction from a competent person rather than betting your life on an unfamiliar skill set.
Brutus
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one900johnnyk
Nov 3, 2003, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: Depends on the placement, and the gear. As a general rule, I consider horizontal placements to be less reliable than vertical placements. Nuts often require opposition or other advanced skills. However, Flex-stem Cams are better than the old, forged-stem cams, particularly in shallow horizontal placements, and Tricams can be quite good in horizontal placements and pockets. If you have questions about this, get some hands-on instruction from a competent person rather than betting your life on an unfamiliar skill set. Brutus
i'd agree w/that...
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neutralcypruss
Nov 3, 2003, 1:45 AM
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8) Tri-cams are awesome in horizontal cracks..
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asaph
Nov 3, 2003, 2:39 AM
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tri-cams are just awesome. period.
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cobra652004
Nov 3, 2003, 2:54 AM
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Horizontal cracks are fine. Just like placing pro anywhere else, though, you have to be sure what you're doing is solid. If you still think they are unsafe, NEVER EVER go to the Gunks. (But they are)
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afiveonbelay
Nov 3, 2003, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: If you still think they are unsafe, NEVER EVER go to the Gunks.
placing gear in horizontals is dangerous, very dangerous. don't go to the gunks don't go to the gunks don't go to the gunks :twisted:
actually placing cams, hexes, and tri-cams in horizontals is fine and just as reliable and safe as verticals. If you fall on a cam, the wires may be bent or kinked but if it holds and keeps you safe and has to be retired, it's less the cost of a ski lift ticket. (in some places) :wink:
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jimdavis
Nov 4, 2003, 12:12 AM
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Place your cam's as deep as is safe, that way you hopefully won't be bending them as much in a fall. Most all modern cams are ment to flex over horozontal placements, but it will kink and damage the cables over time, so try and avoid it. Same goes with nuts and other wired gear. Tri-cams with their webbing don't matter as much though.
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piton
Nov 4, 2003, 2:14 PM
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you want to place cams with the outside cams down.
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gbschmitt
Nov 4, 2003, 3:04 PM
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Horizontal cracks often offer good gear placements. Make sure to use flexible stem cams. Tricams and Hexentrics are good too if you know how to place them properly. Nuts are a little more tricky but you can get some good placements by sliding them sideways to a spot where the crack narrows but make sure it doesn't get wiggled out by rope action. They also can be a pain to retrieve for your second. Whatever you do, make sure that the carabiner into which you clip the rope does not bend over the edge but extend the placement with a long sling so the carabiner dangles freely below the edge.
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ericfrommichigan
Nov 4, 2003, 3:17 PM
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Just getting back into trad after a pretty long downtime but my memory serves me that I had some awesome placements with my good ol' Forged Friends in horizontals. Just get them as far in and Bomber as possible and the trick being to tie of a cordellette sling on the forward tie off holes, this way you have a forward point to clip from if clipping to the supplied rearward sling would allow to much force on the rigid shaft. Just my $0.02.
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trillium
Nov 4, 2003, 3:24 PM
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As mentioned earlier, if you have a fear of placing pro in horizontal cracks then avoid climbing at the Gunks. Horizontals are everywhere. Tricams and Hexes hold very well (extend with a sling so they don't wiggle out), and Flexible stemmed SLCDs are very safe when placed correctly. Avoid shallow/flared cracks and be aware of where your carabiner hangs. (If you are unsure about placement then read John Long's Climbing Anchors.) Happy Horizontal Climbing!
Trillium
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gunkiemike
Nov 4, 2003, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down.
Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly".
Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story.
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petsfed
Nov 4, 2003, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: ...Make sure to use flexible stem cams...
Actually, with the old "Gunks tieoff" as mentioned above, you get a better, stronger placement than with a flexible stem unit (from John Long's book so there you go). Know the limitations of your gear rather than the limitations of the rock. With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything.
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piton
Nov 4, 2003, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story.
mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk.
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fredo
Nov 4, 2003, 9:43 PM
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Tri-Cams or Aliens :D
Rock On!
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gbschmitt
Nov 5, 2003, 2:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...Make sure to use flexible stem cams... Actually, with the old "Gunks tieoff" as mentioned above, you get a better, stronger placement than with a flexible stem unit (from John Long's book so there you go). Know the limitations of your gear rather than the limitations of the rock. With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything.
I don't think the placement is stronger because it mainly depends on the action of the camming units. I don't dispute the need to tie off rigid stem units properly, but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem). As you said, know the limitations of your gear, but don't forget the rock - if you place your cams in a sanding crack, your placement is almost worthless, no matter whether flexible or rigid.
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trillium
Nov 5, 2003, 2:27 PM
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gbschmitt wrote:
"With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything."
Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing.
Trillium
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buckyllama
Nov 5, 2003, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: ...but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem).
Oh really? Jardine's original cams were fairly similar to modern forged friends. The only significant difference being some annodization and milled cam stops. Before that they were a hodge-podge of things ranging from ideas similar to the modern forged friends, to simple strap steel wrapped around the axle for a stem. He toyed with flexable stems and dual stem cams a little bit and abandoned them. He claims it was because they were a substandard design from an engineering standpoint. But I say that's BS. I just think that they were more expensive, more of a pain to make, and heavier (all true).
I also generally prefer flexable stem cams for many uses, but forged friends do have the advantage still that they are very lightweight, cheap, and virtually indestructable. With a gunks tie-off they are the best thing out there for horizontal placements. The tie-off being close to the head means they don't walk, and are stronger than a flex-cam over an edge.
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yomomma
Nov 5, 2003, 4:24 PM
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I'm liking my hexes for horizontals.
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brutusofwyde
Nov 5, 2003, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing.
Potter's Rock, Sonora Pass -- Low Balls, 5.10R Climb the arete to the left of Cut Corner. Offset Aliens, Ball Nutz and HB Offset brass nuts are strongly recommended.
Brutus
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petsfed
Nov 5, 2003, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: gbschmitt wrote: "With a little ingenuity and a lot of balls (and duct tape), one can protect anything." Ingenuity and duct tape maybe, balls are not at all necesary for climbing. Trillium
My apologies, would you prefer courage? We lack an androgenous slang term in the american vernacular to most accurately present what I'm trying to say. Perhaps in the future my knuckles won't drag so much in your presence.
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gunkiemike
Nov 5, 2003, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story. mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk.
And why is that exactly?
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piton
Nov 6, 2003, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you want to place cams with the outside cams down. Only inexperienced climbers say stupid things like this. You often hear them complaining that XX gear failed to hold a fall even though they "placed it correctly". Cams are placed in whichever orientation provides the best placement. Same goes for Tricams, hexes, nuts etc. End of story. mike i agree with your last sentence but, with the outside cams down the cam is less likely to walk. And why is that exactly?
because that’s what i've been told; is that good enough for you!
plus if you look at it in a physics way.
if you place the inner cams down you have less distance between the cams then if the outer cams are placed down: agree?
Ok, so here is a little experiment for you. take 2 music cd covers (or books whatever you have) place them 1 inch apart and place another on top lying across the 2. do the same thing but place them 3 inches apart. which one is more stable??????? which one will wobble around easier????
maybe someone else can help out here and provide info for or against.
thanks
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gbschmitt
Nov 6, 2003, 2:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...but I still prefer flexible stem cams because they are more versatile and less bulky (you may remeber that Ray Jardine's original design had a flexible stem). Oh really? Jardine's original cams were fairly similar to modern forged friends.... .... With a gunks tie-off they are the best thing out there for horizontal placements. The tie-off being close to the head means they don't walk, and are stronger than a flex-cam over an edge.
Yes the cams that Jardine eventually made had a rigid stem after he was persuaded that his original flexible stem design was inferior.
I would argue that a steel cable is stronger over and edge than a sling because it is more resistant to abrasion and shearing...lots of horizontals cracks in the Gunks have pretty sharp edges.
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