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ctclimbz
Jul 2, 2004, 9:41 PM
Post #76 of 99
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In reply to: I've seen belayers hit by rockfall that resulted in broken bones that held the fall. I once took a huge fall and pulled my 110 lb. belayer completely off her feet and for a 25' ride. She held the fall!!
I have a question here. In a similar situation, if you fall and pull your belayer up 25 feet, slam her head into a roof, she then gets knocked unconscious, the rope slips out of her hand, she falls to the ground and you then fall all the way to the ground after her and you both are severly injured, is she an incompetent belayer because she didn't set up correctly?
I ask only to clarify where the line between being competent and being out of your control begins and ends...
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picaco
Jul 2, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #77 of 99
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I think a competent belayer would have anchored if they couldn't hold a fall unanchored.
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 9:50 PM
Post #78 of 99
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In reply to: one confluence of events out of my control that culminated in my dropping the leader to open my eyes. I saved and stopped the rope before the leader hit the ground, .
But this was a story of climbing in a gym. Exactly what events there would be out of one's control. Tripping over the anchor isn't out of your control. And using both hands to break the fall which resulted in letting go of the belay and dropping the climber- that is simply not competent.
So, yes bad things can happen even when you do things right. But here things were not done right.
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 9:56 PM
Post #79 of 99
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In reply to: In reply to: I've seen belayers hit by rockfall that resulted in broken bones that held the fall. I once took a huge fall and pulled my 110 lb. belayer completely off her feet and for a 25' ride. She held the fall!! I have a question here. In a similar situation, if you fall and pull your belayer up 25 feet, slam her head into a roof, she then gets knocked unconscious, the rope slips out of her hand, she falls to the ground and you then fall all the way to the ground after her and you both are severly injured, is she an incompetent belayer because she didn't set up correctly? I ask only to clarify where the line between being competent and being out of your control begins and ends...
Of course not!!
Your example is an argumentum ad absurdum and is meaningless.
The point is that in the event described there was nothing that should have resulted in releasing the belay by a competent belayer. Tripping over an anchor at an indoor gym is not at all like being pulled up 25' and being rendered unconscious.
To repeat-- Bad things can happen even when you do all you can do correctly- that is not the same as not being competent.
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dawnawanna
Jul 2, 2004, 10:24 PM
Post #80 of 99
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I've tripped once while belaying. It was in a climbing gym, I was trying to get out of the way of another belayer who was wandering backwards. I stumbled and thought I was going down.... My non-brake hand went to the rope right next to my brake hand. I thought I was going to fall so I immediately moved my other hand to back-up the brake. Me getting carpet burn on my face is way better than my partner decking. As belayers we've got to drill into our heads that the brake hand never comes off, no matter what. When learning to belay I was instructed that I may get hit by things, I may get stung, or I might even go for a ride but that I was never to remove the brake hand. I think they called it "the circle of life".
That being said, my gym allows any belay device. I use a Reverso. They have belay and knot tying tests. Newbies take a 1-hr class to learn to belay and tie knots. You can lead climb if you bring your own rope and pass more tests. I love my gym (when it's too wet to go outside, that is)
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 10:28 PM
Post #81 of 99
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In reply to: I've tripped once while belaying. It was in a climbing gym, I was trying to get out of the way of another belayer who was wandering backwards. I stumbled and thought I was going down.... My non-brake hand went to the rope right next to my brake hand. I thought I was going to fall so I immediately moved my other hand to back-up the brake. Me getting carpet burn on my face is way better than my partner decking.
And that is an example of a competent belay! Even when something went wrong the belay was not lost.
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climb_plastic
Jul 2, 2004, 11:06 PM
Post #82 of 99
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In reply to: Also, perhaps the belayer didn't quite realize that letting go of the brake hand NEVER, EVER happens, if the belayer falls, they do so with the brake on..
Does "letting go of the brake hand" also include when you loosen the grip on the brake hand? I notice that everyone keeps the brake hand on the rope but most people loosen the grip momentarily to slide rope through it either to feed rope or right after taking slack to slide the hand back up the rope. That split second is all it takes for the climber to fall a long distance. I think that's when it happened to me when I was feeding rope. I talked to people who use hand-over-hand techniques when feeding rope and taking slack and they all say they use the techniques to make sure that if the climber falls at any time there is always a "locked" brake hand on the rope. It made sense to me and now I use hand-over-hand techniques. Is this nitpicking belay technique because I know the other way is safe too but I think that split second where the grip is loosened is all it takes to take a 20 foot fall.
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 11:13 PM
Post #83 of 99
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In reply to: Does "letting go of the brake hand" also include when you loosen the grip on the brake hand? I notice that everyone keeps the brake hand on the rope but most people loosen the grip momentarily to slide rope through it either to feed rope or right after taking slack to slide the hand back up the rope. That split second is all it takes for the climber to fall a long distance. . Is this nitpicking belay technique because I know the other way is safe too but I think that split second where the grip is loosened is all it takes to take a 20 foot fall.
You do not need to always have a vise like grip on the rope. When the rope is in the locked off position a very light grip will hold most falls and the instant that it will take to tighten will NOT be the cause of a bad fall. In fact it is best to have a bit of dynamic in the belay.
The idea of keeping the rope in the locked off position is why lots of us do not like the "pull pinch" method of TR belaying and prefer to keep the rope locked or at least almost locked off all the time.
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climb_plastic
Jul 2, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #84 of 99
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In reply to: I once took a huge fall and pulled my 110 lb. belayer completely off her feet and for a 25' ride. She held the fall!! So now we have a case where almost all of the situation is controlled- indoors at a gym- and the belayer dropped the climber. That is incompetent belaying As for 2)- she cannot belay me!
You're competent? You talk about positioning correctly so that your partner doesn't trip while belaying and then you took a huge fall with a 110 lb belayer and took her for a 25' ride. You're just lucky nothing happened!
As for 2) - that's great that you have such good hindsight.
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 11:24 PM
Post #85 of 99
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In reply to: In reply to: I once took a huge fall and pulled my 110 lb. belayer completely off her feet and for a 25' ride. She held the fall!! So now we have a case where almost all of the situation is controlled- indoors at a gym- and the belayer dropped the climber. That is incompetent belaying As for 2)- she cannot belay me! You're competent? You talk about positioning so that your partner doesn't trip and then you took a huge fall with a 110 lb belayer and took her for a 25' ride. You're just lucky nothing happened! As for 2) - that's great that you have such good hindsight.
See! that's what happens when you comment on situations about which you don't know.
In fact the situation, assuming a competent belayer- was safe! There was nothing she could hit (no roofs or large features to be pulled into). The area she was in was low angle so she could "step back" onto the rock at any point. In fact she basically ran up the rock as she was pulled. So, all she needed to do was hang on to the belay and we were both perfectly safe. In other situations we would (and did) anchor her to hold a potential big fall. But in this case the steep part of climb started some 50' up and the anchor simply wasn't needed. (and in truth there was little or nothing to anchor to at the base of this particular climb)
Both of us left without a scratch.
As to hindsight, it isn't hindsight looking forward- there is now plenty of information. Why not use it?
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climb_plastic
Jul 2, 2004, 11:36 PM
Post #86 of 99
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In reply to: In fact the situation, assuming a competent belayer- was safe! There was nothing she could hit (no roofs or large features to be pulled into). The area she was in was low angle so she could "step back" onto the rock at any point. In fact she basically ran up the rock as she was pulled. So, all she needed to do was hang on to the belay and we were both perfectly safe. In other situations we would (and did) anchor her to hold a potential big fall. But in this case the steep part of climb started some 50' up and the anchor simply wasn't needed. (and in truth there was little or nothing to anchor to at the base of this particular climb) Both of us left without a scratch. As to hindsight, it isn't hindsight looking forward- there is now plenty of information. Why not use it?
How can that be OK when you say competent belayers should position themselves where they can't trip? The situation you described is not the right way to do it.
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gds
Jul 2, 2004, 11:47 PM
Post #87 of 99
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In reply to: In reply to: In fact the situation, assuming a competent belayer- was safe! There was nothing she could hit (no roofs or large features to be pulled into). The area she was in was low angle so she could "step back" onto the rock at any point. In fact she basically ran up the rock as she was pulled. So, all she needed to do was hang on to the belay and we were both perfectly safe. In other situations we would (and did) anchor her to hold a potential big fall. But in this case the steep part of climb started some 50' up and the anchor simply wasn't needed. (and in truth there was little or nothing to anchor to at the base of this particular climb) Both of us left without a scratch. As to hindsight, it isn't hindsight looking forward- there is now plenty of information. Why not use it? How can that be OK when you say competent belayers should position themselves where they can't trip? The situation you described is not the right way to do it.
Just read the description! We understood the terrain and judged - correctly -that if I fell the direction of pull would keep her on terrain that was perfectly safe and would not cause a problem. The fall happend (sadly) but the sceanrio played out exactly as predicted and was perfectly safe.
I must not be getting your point.
But my point is that the cardinal rule of belaying is to not let go of the rope. In the example that started this the belayer, in a very controlled, indoor setting let go. In my opinion that outcome in that situation is ample proof of a lack of competence. I'm missing how or why you are arguing otherwise. I have been clear in saying that situations like a belayer being knocked unconscious is different. So, I must just not be getting your point.
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j_ung
Jul 3, 2004, 12:01 AM
Post #88 of 99
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In reply to: I was climbing with my friend who was/is a competent belayer and she was ancored into the floor. I slapped at the top hold of a 30ft route and peeled off. She was pulled forward and tripped over the daisy chain anchoring her to the floor. She instinctivly moved her hands out of lock position to stop herself from falling and by the time she realized what had happened I had already hit the floor after about 25ft of free fall. We were both shaken but the gymnastics pads on the ground did their job and I walked away with nothing more serious than a rugburn on my right arm.
(emphasis added)
Note the bold portions above. The belayer 1) positioned herself behind the belay anchor, and 2) removed her brake hand from the rope during a fall.
DURING A FALL
Certainly, it is possible for objective hazards that are out of our control to cause no-fault accidents -- rock fall might qualify as an example -- but this sure as hell doesn't qualify. Every mistake she made was completely in her control to correct via the most basic belay practices -- points that most of us learned the very first time that we belayed.
I don't know what your definition of competent is. Mine is very different.
If I have to make this point again, somebody's gonna be slapped with a Gumby of the Year nomination. :P
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angry
Jul 3, 2004, 1:14 AM
Post #89 of 99
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First off, I have to say that the gri-gri is the smoothest belay device on lead I've ever used. If you disagree with me on this, consider yourself light green (hey gumby is light green).
I rarely use a gri-gri except at the gym, it's a pleasure to use, but I use it right.
Today I took a beginner climbing, by beginner I mean she had never climbed before today. She asked me why we didn't go to a climbing wall instead of real rock. I answered that climbing walls have precious few routes easy enough for a beginner, they are in too controlled of an environment and lead to complacency, finally that they are better for intermediate to advanced climbers to improve skills and strength for outdoor climbing.
I understand commerce and walls, I just hate to see them handicap so many beginners. A lot of them have to be taught all over again once they get outside, they seem unable to apply what they have learned to outdoor climbing.
Climbing is a lot like sex, the first time is awkward and strange, certainly not the best you'll have. But you'll remember it forever. It's a crime to teach someone on plastic for this very reason.
A little of topic, sorry.
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slab-dyno
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Jul 3, 2004, 2:40 AM
Post #90 of 99
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I work at a rock gym where belayers are required to use an ATC / tube style belay device. We supply Trango Jaws on all of our ropes.
For new belayers, we offer belay classes and enforce proper technique rather than letting anyone belay with a "foolproof" Gri-Gri. Our belay test is one of the most comprehensive I have seen. We require the belayer to tie in the climber with a retraced figure-eight knot plus a double fisherman's back-up. Then the belayer must set up the belay station properly from scratch, and clip into a ground anchor. The climber and belayer go through proper commands, and then the climber takes four unannounced falls. For the first two, the belayer may watch, but for the second two, the belayer must look down or close their eyes. Then the climber must lower in control. This certifies the belayer for that day.
We are also not afraid to fail incompetent belayers. Sure, they may be pissed, but we haven't had any accidents or even "close calls" in the 8-9 years we've been open.
Upon returning to the gym on the next visit, the belayer must take a follow up test to be sure they remember all the proper techniques. Then they will be fully certified to belay whenever they want.
I think that this method teaches people the proper techniques, and is much better than handing some incompetent parent a Gri-Gri, and telling them to go have fun.
Jimmy
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nirvana
Jul 3, 2004, 3:28 AM
Post #91 of 99
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In reply to: I think a competent belayer would have anchored if they couldn't hold a fall unanchored.
Speaking as one of the small belayers (and yes, I've taken some long upward flights when the lead has peeled, and never let go of the rope--including one where I collided in midair with the lead)--there are times when you should NOT be anchored, no matter how large or small you are: when there is danger of rockfall, when the lead is going to run it out and the possibility of hitting a ledge or taking a groundfall exists (in which case, your job is to run like hell in order to take up slack). Also, if the places to anchor are awkwardly placed in relation to the first piece of pro, sometimes I'd rather take a chance at a ride than be tied in and yanked in all directions by a fall.
Part of being a competent light belayer is checking to see where you're going to end up in the event of a fall.
So duh, look out for ledges.
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streakingtradclimber
Jul 3, 2004, 4:45 AM
Post #92 of 99
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You people had some messed up gyms. The gym by me you choose how you belay as long as you are safe.
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climb_plastic
Jul 3, 2004, 8:18 AM
Post #93 of 99
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In fact the situation, assuming a competent belayer- was safe! There was nothing she could hit (no roofs or large features to be pulled into). The area she was in was low angle so she could "step back" onto the rock at any point. In fact she basically ran up the rock as she was pulled. So, all she needed to do was hang on to the belay and we were both perfectly safe. In other situations we would (and did) anchor her to hold a potential big fall. But in this case the steep part of climb started some 50' up and the anchor simply wasn't needed. (and in truth there was little or nothing to anchor to at the base of this particular climb) Both of us left without a scratch. As to hindsight, it isn't hindsight looking forward- there is now plenty of information. Why not use it? How can that be OK when you say competent belayers should position themselves where they can't trip? The situation you described is not the right way to do it. Just read the description! We understood the terrain and judged - correctly -that if I fell the direction of pull would keep her on terrain that was perfectly safe and would not cause a problem. The fall happend (sadly) but the sceanrio played out exactly as predicted and was perfectly safe. I must not be getting your point.
I don't think too many people will back you up on that. She weighs 110 lbs...I don't even need to ask how much you weigh. So it happened exactly as you predicted that you would pull her up in the air that high and you didn't do anything to stop it. I can't think of any climb outside or inside where I at 140 lbs would climb with an unanchored belayer that weighs 110. Oh and did you predict that you would fall at that spot? What if something else you didn't predict happened like you falling when you're trying to make the 2nd clip....can you predict what would happen after that? No you can't because anything can happen. Although I can make a guess that you'd either hit the floor or your partner.
You said it yourself, you made a prediction and a prediction is just a guess. You just happened to guess right this time. If you ever predict wrong then we'll all be sitting here calling you incompetent and all the things that you did incompetent.
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nirvana
Jul 3, 2004, 8:20 PM
Post #94 of 99
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In reply to: I can't think of any climb outside or inside where I at 140 lbs would climb with an unanchored belayer that weighs 110.
I weigh 110 and have never belayed for anyone my size. The closest has been someone who has 20 pounds on me, and my regular partner has close to 50 pounds on me.
Sometimes I anchor, and sometimes I don't. You have to read each individual situation. Rockfall, rope drag, R & X situations.
There really are ways to properly belay when one is lighter than the lead. The first thing you have to do is read the route. Yes, the lead checks out a route and makes an assessment of each clip/likely pro placement and thinks about how that will play out in the event of a fall. Well, the belayer has to do the same thing--look at the route, consider the possibilities, make as well-informed a decision as possible. It's not as simple as clipping yourself to the ground and waving goodbye to the lead (don't use your brake hand :wink: ).
When I'm belaying, I read the route from a belayer's perspective--what'll happen if there's a fall on the first clip, the second, during a dyno, etc., etc. I assume that's usual practice?
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dono169
Jul 5, 2004, 12:12 AM
Post #95 of 99
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If you have access to a grigri , why bother with a figure eight
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mdenham
Jul 6, 2004, 1:29 AM
Post #96 of 99
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I've been climbing and belaying at my local gym for about a month. They use grigris and ATCs and started me off for the first few weeks with a grigri, before showing me the ATC. I was a bit nervous at first on the ATC, but I soon became more comfortable with it and much prefer it. They checked how I was doing and then I got a top rope belay card. You can also get a lead belay card if they show you how to do that, but the people I go with only toprope.
I've only seen a couple of people using grigris, and beginners are often shown on ATCs right away. I know a couple of beginners who leave the ATC in the non-locked position for quite a while and some more experienced people too, which is a bit worrying. I certainly wouldn't have them belay me though. I've not seen anyone belay on figure 8s at my gym (although I have only been going there for a month!).
Michael
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strangeday
Jul 6, 2004, 6:01 AM
Post #97 of 99
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It depends on what you are doing. Gri-Gri is the most easy to use , idiot proof belay device there is, and for top roping they cant be beat.However you should know all types of belay methods anyway before you ever run rope for someone. The do suck really bad for leading, but I prefer a tube slot type device anyway, or just use a 10mm rope...
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jumpingrock
Jul 6, 2004, 1:29 PM
Post #99 of 99
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I have been dropped by somebody using a gri-gri (incompetant new employee @ a gym). I have never been dropped by an ATC and a competent belayer. Even though I have hit him on the way down from a lead fall in a gym. He still didn't drop me.
And a statement to the person who was dropped when his belayer tripped over the anchor... seriously do you know how to anchor? The anchor should have been placed so that there was no chance for the belayer to move forward and trip over it.
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