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daveh_cdn
Apr 19, 2004, 6:43 AM
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I am trying to decide which of these items I should buy for use during top rope solos. I'm gonna back up with tie-in knots along the way too, so I will have a backup. I'm not worried about the strength of the device. Both are good for what I'll be doing. I'm not going to be leading on it (only tr'ing easy stuff) so that isn't really a factor.
I am under the impression that the Ascension will not automatically follow me up the rope as I go, and I will have to pull it every once in a while. :?
Will the Mini Traxion follow me up easier? If it does I would like to get that device... if not, then I might as well get the Ascension because it has more potential features (and is cheaper).
I am also under the impression that both devices are toothed for use when catching rope. I currently climb on a 10.5 mm Dynamic. How much damage will a catch (my body weight of 165 lbs) do to my rope?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Dave
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keithlester
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Apr 19, 2004, 1:06 PM
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I wouldn't reccomend any toothed device for the purpose you state. They inevitably cause excessive wear on the rope, compared to devices using a camming method and smooth faced cams. I have a little experience of self belayed TR. I use the Petzl Shunt, but I am aware that other climbers dont like them. They do however follow you up the rope easily, and dont have to be re-oriented if you need to bail out and Rap off.
If you search on self belayed TR you should find oodles of advice as this subject comes round regularly.
Hope that was of some use to you. :)
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 3:38 PM
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The ascension is rated by petzl as a top rope device. I've used it and fallen pretty hard on it on 2 occasion's.
Yopu do not want these device's "following" you. You should be pushing them along ABOVE you. If they "follow" , you could potential create the same kind of force as a lead fall-albeit a small one. The ascension is not rated for this.
HAVE FUN!!
josh
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d.ben
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Apr 19, 2004, 3:42 PM
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search google for guide to self belay. There you will find a pretty comprehensive article outlining most solo device's pro's/con's.
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ricardol
Apr 19, 2004, 3:50 PM
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wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? --
-- ricardo
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keithlester
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Apr 19, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? -- -- ricardo
The only problem with the Gri Gri is that its possible to fall in such a way that the rope is loaded over the edge of the pulley shaped section of the cam, which is sharp enough to sever the rope. Some people do a mod, which involves filing to remove some metal and change the line that the rope takes through the device, but I would not try that, nor recommend it.
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 4:35 PM
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This topic has been covered to death....
No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load. How much good is a backup knot going to do you if it severs the line?
Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's?
If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it.
If you need to ask people on the internet about what's safe, you shouldn't be out soloing.
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semisteep
Apr 19, 2004, 4:49 PM
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I use an Ushba ascender. It has no teeth and works great. The weight of a water bottle on the end of the line is enough to make it feed really well. I have fallen on it repeatedly and use it often at the Ouray Ice Park and on rock routes. I back it up with a prussik above the device and on longer routes I will sometimes back up with knots.
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daveh_cdn
Apr 19, 2004, 5:12 PM
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"If you need to ask people on the internet about what's safe, you shouldn't be out soloing."
I dont remember asking that question. I do however remember asking if the mini traxion moves up the rope easier than a Ascension, and how much damage will be done to my 10.5 dynamic if I put my weight on it.
Thanks for your "help" though.
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ricardol
Apr 19, 2004, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? -- -- ricardo The only problem with the Gri Gri is that its possible to fall in such a way that the rope is loaded over the edge of the pulley shaped section of the cam, which is sharp enough to sever the rope. Some people do a mod, which involves filing to remove some metal and change the line that the rope takes through the device, but I would not try that, nor recommend it.
.. are there any documented cases of this happening? -- or just a possibility --
-- ricardo
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 5:47 PM
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[quote="jimdavis"]No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load.
WRONG!!
Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUCK IN THEIR WAYS!! AND BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE MUCH USE FOR THEM IN RESCUE SCENARIO'S- BUT MOST(WELL THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY CLIMB) USE THEM ON THEIR DAY OFF....
If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it.
AGREED
quote]
josh
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adamwvt
Apr 19, 2004, 6:54 PM
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I have found that the mini traxion feeds much better. I use it for top rope aid soloing though. Is that pathetic or what?
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 7:06 PM
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[quote="flamer"]In reply to: No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load. WRONG!! Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's? BECAUSE THEY ARE STUCK IN THEIR WAYS!! AND BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE MUCH USE FOR THEM IN RESCUE SCENARIO'S- BUT MOST(WELL THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY CLIMB) USE THEM ON THEIR DAY OFF.... If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it. AGREED quote] josh
I'm on a rescue team dude. We don't use them because they will sever a rope, if you don't believe me contact Petzl about it.
Why do you think they made the ID? And another company makes the "Rescue 540." http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/MiscBelay756.html
What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use?
Camming devices are not designed to take shock loads. Falling on an Ascender, a Traxion, ect with enough energy generated (i.e. enough slack) will cut your rope. Gri-Gri's with a high enough load (i.e. rescue-load) will cut your rope.
Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab?
Sorry, but I know what I'm taking about here.
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wonderbread
Apr 19, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Jim your wrong. I don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. First off you asked what good a back up knot will do if you sever the rope. If you are even remotely qualified to rescue something more than a cat out of a tree you should be able to think this one through. Next, gri-gri's are safe and aren't going to sever a rope. Can you provide ONE example of when a gri-gri cut a rope? Just one Jim? Next, guides use gri-gri all the time due to the applications in rescue scenarios. You'd learn this if you took an AMGA course. Also, my mini traxion came with instructions on how to use it as a tr solo device. Was Petzl lying to me? Are they trying to get me killed? What tests have you done on petzl equipment, where can I read your results? How many of these tests have you done?
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d.ben
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Apr 19, 2004, 8:24 PM
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can someone please explain to me how I'm gonna fall more than a foot, and sever my rope TR soloing with an acsender at my chest level. It's always folowing me up right there with me. I don't get it. when I fall TR solo it's more like just coming off the rock and the rope stretching a little( I'm 120lbs).
btw I'm using a petzl basic, Petzl says it's correct to use it for self belay.
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: I'm on a rescue team dude. We don't use them because they will sever a rope, if you don't believe me contact Petzl about it. Why do you think they made the ID? And another company makes the "Rescue 540." http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/MiscBelay756.html What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use? Camming devices are not designed to take shock loads. Falling on an Ascender, a Traxion, ect with enough energy generated (i.e. enough slack) will cut your rope. Gri-Gri's with a high enough load (i.e. rescue-load) will cut your rope. Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab? Sorry, but I know what I'm taking about here.
Being on a rescue team may be part of your problem!!HaHa!!
It is NOT the camming action that is the problem....it's the teeth.
I don't think you could impact a smooth "camming action" device with enough force to sever a nylon rope. Certainly not one of the device's mentioned.
Now that we've learned what ISN'T the problem why don't we explore what is...hmmm??
The Teeth on a "toothed" ascend of any kind can (and have) cut through the sheath and core of nylon ropes. Inorder to do this you would have to generate a significant force, ie one along the lines of a lead fall.
Petzl has rated their ascension and basic ascender for TOPROPE soloing for a very long time. While TR soloing you should NOT generate a fall with enough force to do ANY damage to the rope. Why??? Because the spring loaded camming action keeps the teeth right where they need to be on the rope(assuming the device has been properly pushed up the rope with NO slack in the system). This is where using something like a Ti-bloc is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. WHY??? Because the Ti-bloc has LONGER AND SHARPER teeth- and must be manually set on the rope. If you were to take even a Toprope fall on a Ti-bloc you could easily tear into the sheath.
Get it?
Maybe you should ask petzl?
josh
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use?
Ummm....because techno-rescue-geek types will buy them????
josh
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab?
Ever heard of 2 other Wren products...the Soloist and the solo aid???
Ever looked at either one of them???
CAMS!!!!!
sorry I couldn't resist these last 2 comments...it's been a bad couple of days and I needed to get a little rowdy.
josh
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: Jim your wrong. I don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. First off you asked what good a back up knot will do if you sever the rope. If you are even remotely qualified to rescue something more than a cat out of a tree you should be able to think this one through.
On a TR solo, backup knots are tied below the Ascender, thus if you cut the rope above it...what do you think is gonna happen?
In reply to: Next, guides use gri-gri all the time due to the applications in rescue scenarios. You'd learn this if you took an AMGA course.
It's funny you mention that, because I'm friends with the guy who WROTE the AMGA TRSM course. Maybe you've heard of him, Jon Tierney, does articles for Rock and Ice. BTW, I've taken a course he wrote for credit at my school that is almost exactally the same as the AMGA TR course, and I work with 4 people that are all either TRSM or Rock Instructor certified.
Also, a climbing load doesn't qualify as a Rescue Load simply because the climber is being rescued. Rescue loads involve multiple people on a line and a patient typically in a litter. Devices are tested to rescue standards at 200kg's.
Maybe your talking about drop loops or Z-Drags for guiding rescue...which I teach people on courses. Or maybe your talking about compound complex haul systems, which I've also taught people and have used multiple times in Rescue Trainings.
In reply to: What tests have you done on petzl equipment, where can I read your results? How many of these tests have you done?
"Strictly speaking all belay devices for a full rescue load are being operated outside of manufacturers recommendations."
I'm sure if you get in contact with either MDI SAR or Lincoln County SAR in Maine, they'll give your their numbers and resources on this information.
The Pro-Traxion is a Wall Hauler. Ascenders are not ment for it, and I'd be hesitant about using a Pro-Traxion for this purpose. This if from the Petzl page about the Pro-Traxion, and here's the link.
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN."
http://www.petzl.com/...eil=&ProduitAssocie=
Just cause you have your AMGA TRSM cert doesn't mean you know everything; they've been talking about upping the standards for that course for years. Some guides even have 100% pass rates on that course. A cert doesn't replace research.
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wonderbread
Apr 20, 2004, 3:10 AM
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On TR solo knots are NOT tied below the ascender. That was a pretty big hint, do you think you can figure it out now??? Next, if I am tr soloing why would I have multiple people on a rope and one in a litter? I don't take 4 people soloing with me, do you?
Also go to the petzl page and read the first paragraph about the mini-traxion. The one where they say that it can be used as a self belay device, and I will ask you once again-Is petzl lying to me? Are they trying to kill me? Do you think you are better educated to tell me what their products can and can't do than petzl???
And finally you said earlier that people file their gri-gris so they won't cut the rope, this is also wrong. People file their gri-gris in order to make them auto feed.
Look, you may know what you are talking about in rescue situations, but you seem to be pretty clueless about climbing and tr soloing.
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wonderbread
Apr 20, 2004, 3:17 AM
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jimdavis wrote
"I'm just learning Trad now, lead my first pitch yesterday....longest 5.5 i've ever done. Took my 30 mins to climb 90 feet of switchbacking slab"
Sorry Jim, but I think you should perhaps be a little more qualified to talk about advanced climbing systems.
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adamwvt
Apr 20, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Once while top rope soloing with my mini, my jacket got caught up in the cam, and I almost shiat myself.
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johnhenry
Apr 20, 2004, 10:20 AM
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To answer your original question amigo....
Yes the mini-traxion will feed much smoother than the ascension.
It is also great for Jugging! Incredibly versitile piece of equipment.
Rock on,
john
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daveh_cdn
Apr 20, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: To answer your original question amigo.... Yes the mini-traxion will feed much smoother than the ascension.
Awesome bro. Thats definately what I'm gonna pick up then.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: On TR solo knots are NOT tied below the ascender. That was a pretty big hint, do you think you can figure it out now???
You wanna explain how you can put backup knots in on a Top Rope, soloing...and not have it be below the Ascender? Where are your backup knots when your jugging? It's the same principle, unless we're talking about completly different systems.
In reply to: Also go to the petzl page and read the first paragraph about the mini-traxion. The one where they say that it can be used as a self belay device, and I will ask you once again-Is petzl lying to me?
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN. "
http://www.petzl.com/...eil=&ProduitAssocie=
So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's? I think Petzl is refering to moving along a fixed line in a mountaineering sense, not as in soloing rock climbing where the energy created in a fall will be much greater.
In reply to: And finally you said earlier that people file their gri-gris so they won't cut the rope, this is also wrong. People file their gri-gris in order to make them auto feed.
Can you tell me where I ever talked about filing...it's news to me.
In reply to: Look, you may know what you are talking about in rescue situations, but you seem to be pretty clueless about climbing and tr soloing.
No, I'm concervative. I've taken Big Wall, and Self Rescue classes with Mark Synnott. I've taken Top Roping Classes, Aid seminars, Jugging lessons, taught TR Anchors courses, Intermediate Climbing courses, ect, all so I know that I can get myself out of pretty much any situation that I'll encounter climbing. I just started leading cause up until recently I haven't had the money for my own gear. So many you can place your gear a little quicker than I can, but I know my systems.
In reply to: Next, if I am tr soloing why would I have multiple people on a rope and one in a litter? I don't take 4 people soloing with me, do you?
I was talking about a Gri-Gri's effectivness as a Rescue Load bearing device. Backing up my point that a Gri-Gri will cut a rope at a high enough load. I'm getting tired of arguing with you, I'm gonna email Petzl and let you know what they say about it.
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mark99
Apr 21, 2004, 5:56 AM
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Well here goes adding fuel to the fire and my opinion.
You are probably right, with enough force a gri gri will probably cut the rope. Also so will a acsender and so will most types of devices that grab / trap or hold the rope in some form or another.
I always love how a thread starts out with a simple question and then people go off on a tangent.
The person ask which people would prefer as a top rope self belay device. They are both stated by Petzel to do this job, as well as the main function they are designed to do. Talk to petzel, like I have and you will soon understand that they only inform the person of what the product they are selling can do..
Do you really think they will sell something stating it can do something and it cannot? no. This is just plan simple.
You will also notice that they state how to create the setup and state it has to be this way. So any modifications and then you are not using it for what they stated.
So if you do have a differant way and it works fine, then that is up to you. Let other people know, but also let them know it is your opinion.
This is the great thing I like about climbing, there are so many differant opionions and ways of doing something. At the end of the day it is up to you personally to decide whether you want to do, try or use that method.
Both people arguing here have there own merits, one is a theory man and the other pratical man. What I would of like to have seen is, instead of arguing, is addressing the person questions using your own OPINIONS and maybe combining you efforts to give him enough information to make his own judgement.
Right after all that, I will give you my opinion about it. I personally do not like teeth devices on my climbing rope. This is just a personal opinion, fine on an old rope or static rope but not on my nice climbing rope. I have talked to several people that use these devices for solo and they both work well, though having the mini traxion is good to have handy for hauling.
Personally I use the shunt, as it move with me and no teeth. Then you must understand that I only top rope solo routes that are beneath my grade and normally done several times, more as a way of keeping fit when no one is around.
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beesty511
Apr 21, 2004, 6:52 AM
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In reply to: The person ask which people would prefer as a top rope self belay device. They are both stated by Petzel to do this job, as well as the main function they are designed to do. Talk to petzel, like I have and you will soon understand that they only inform the person of what the product they are selling can do.. Do you really think they will sell something stating it can do something and it cannot? no. This is just plan simple.
You say that Petzl won't sell a product that won't do what they advertise. The question is: what does Petzl say the mini traxion will do? I've seen people post on this site that the mini traxion can hold falls up to 20kn. However, Petzl doesn't say that. In their front page description, Petzl says:
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN."
Furthermore, I've looked at the mini traxion technical specifications that Petzl links and which comes in the box when you buy one, and nowhere that I can find does it say it can be used for self belay on fifth class climbs. On the contrary, the instructions show a picture of it being used for self belay on what looks like 3rd class terrain. Conspicuous by it's absence is a diagram of it being used for top rope self belay. Nonetheless, I don't really put much faith in the pictures, so I looked at what Petzl listed as the impact rating for self belaying. However, I found the figures confusing. They divide their figures into 3 catagories for dynamic ropes: factor 1 falls, factor .5 falls, and something called "static request". Then they list the diameter of the rope and a kN figure next to it:
factor 1
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10.5: .... 5 kN (risk limited to damage of rope sheath)
factor .5
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10.5:.......3.7 kN (no rupture of sheat)
static request:
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10.5:.......6.1 kN (risk limited to damage of rope sheath)
Are they listing the status of the rope after each type of fall? What is a static request fall? What does the kN figure tell you? Is it the force they measured on the rope? Finally, how do those kN figures jive with the 4kN Petzl states on the main page?
The only thing I can conclude is that Petzl does a horrible job explaining what their technical specifications mean.
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johnhenry
Apr 21, 2004, 7:46 AM
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In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope. I think manufacturers are excedingly cautious when it comes to this sort of thing. I am not worried about it on a dynamic rope. If I was, I would clip it with a shorty screamer and two locking biners.
I forgo backup knots and use a second device on a second rope as necessary.
Be safe, have fun,
john
P.s. There is also a good diagram of it used for jugging.
The Mini-traxion is the Cat's meow!
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johnhenry
Apr 21, 2004, 7:58 AM
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In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope...
Rock On,
john
P.s. There is also a good diagram of it used for jugging.
The Mini-traxion is the Cat's meow!
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wonderbread
Apr 21, 2004, 2:39 PM
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jim davis wrote...You wanna explain how you can put backup knots in on a Top Rope, soloing...and not have it be below the Ascender? Where are your backup knots when your jugging? It's the same principle, unless we're talking about completly different systems.
Obviously you tie the middle of the rope to the anchor point, as long as both ends reach the ground you now have one rope to climb on with a mini-t second to tie bakcup knots in. If one doubled rope won't reach the ground you then need a second rope to do this.
jimdavis wrote...So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's? I think Petzl is refering to moving along a fixed line in a mountaineering sense, not as in soloing rock climbing where the energy created in a fall will be much greater.
Like I have been saying all along-In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope...
jimdavis wrote...No, I'm concervative. I've taken Big Wall, and Self Rescue classes with Mark Synnott. I've taken Top Roping Classes, Aid seminars, Jugging lessons, taught TR Anchors courses, Intermediate Climbing courses, ect, all so I know that I can get myself out of pretty much any situation that I'll encounter climbing. I just started leading cause up until recently I haven't had the money for my own gear. So many you can place your gear a little quicker than I can, but I know my systems.
That's all great, but you have no experience. Something that is absolutley mandatory. You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t. I've been climbing walls for years, climbing hard trad routes since your first classes, and setting anchors since before you even thought of climbing. Have you ever even tr soloed? If not why are you so adament about something you don't know anything about?
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: I've seen people post on this site that the mini traxion can hold falls up to 20kn...
Really? Who? I'd like to see that post.
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: The Pro-Traxion is a Wall Hauler.
In reply to: So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's?
If you can't figure out how to TR solo without developing 4KN then you have a lot more pressing problems than "which device is best".
Like, "Do I really understand this stuff well enough to be climbing at all?"
Theory is what some has told you.
Experience is what you know.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: That's all great, but you have no experience. Something that is absolutley mandatory. You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t. I've been climbing walls for years, climbing hard trad routes since your first classes, and setting anchors since before you even thought of climbing. Have you ever even tr soloed? If not why are you so adament about something you don't know anything about?
I don't doubt that you have more experience than I, but it doesn't mean you know everything better than someone who hasn't had as much experience.
I have TR soloed, but in a different manner than you describe. I've always had the line tied off to a ground anchor, and then passing through a master point up top. I self-belayed with a Gri-Gri, and backed up below the device. With more rope out it'll give a softer catch, but I certainly see the merits of the system your talking about. Thanks for describing that to me.
In reply to: You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t.
No, I know what I know, and I know how to do it. Just because you've done it longer, doesn't mean you do it better. But I'm tired of bickering, and I need to go to work. I'll post what Petzl tells me when they get back to me.
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beesty511
Apr 21, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: I'll post what Petzl tells me when they get back to me.
Thanks. I look forward to reading Petzl's explanations. Don't let the negative people get you down.
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wonderbread
Apr 21, 2004, 8:29 PM
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And here is what I know. In the first paragraph of petzl's mini traxion page they state it is among other things a tr self belay device. I will never generate enough force to break the thing while tr soloing, and like tedc said, if you can manage to do this you are doing something terribly wrong. Next, my system always has a sufficient backup. And finally the numerous routes I have used this device for it has worked perfectly. I would recommend this device for tr soloing.
So what was the question you sent to petzl anyway?
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rockitjeff
Apr 21, 2004, 9:07 PM
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Yikes. Who IS running the asylum? First jimdavis wrote
”I'm on a rescue team dude.”
Then Wonderbread digs up this gem that jimdavis wrote
"I'm just learning Trad now, lead my first pitch yesterday....longest 5.5 i've ever done. Took my 30 mins to climb 90 feet of switchbacking slab"
Ha.
I’m on a rescue team, dude.
That’s classic.
Oh- by the way- the Soloist was designed for top roping. Like a million threads have argued B4, it’s worth a look, too.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 9:27 PM
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You guy's need to get over this leading trad deal. I've spent so much time rigging systems that I really don't care what you guys say, I know my skills...leading trad isn't really high on that list now.
But here's my email content:
In reply to: Messsage : I was wondering about use of the Mini-Traxion and Pro-Traxion as use in Top Rop Solo setup for rock climbing. Are they ok to use considering their breaking load is rated at 4kn? Is this what you mean by they are recommened for "Self-Belay"? Also i was wondering if there are any reported instances of Gri-Gri's cutting the rope when too much force is applied, eg. a Rescue Load? Is this why they are not rated for rescue use? Thanks. James, Sometimes a "picture" is worth a thousand words! I'll let you answer these questions yourself. Follow the guidelines set forth in our Tech Notices for each of the products that you have questions about and you can't go wrong. I cannot advise you to use them in any other fashion. Kn ratings are included as well as some excellent tips on function and safety. Enjoy! And, let me know if you have any problems opening these files. You can find this info as well on our web page www.petzl.com. Cheers! Chuck Odette Petzl America Customer Sales & Support Toll Free Direct: 1-800-686-6207 Fax: 1-801-926-1501 codette@petzl.com
He attached the little hang-tag stuff for the Traxions and the Gri-Gri, which you can find on their site. So yet another company pussy-foots around a direct question.
But yea, i guess if you backed up on another independat line of rope, using a Traxion for self belay would be ok, i'd think it might trash your rope, but whatever.
Cheers,
Jim
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ricardol
Apr 21, 2004, 9:42 PM
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well i for one -- plan on continuing to use a grigri for aid self-belay .. (on lead)
-- ricardo
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: Oh- by the way- the Soloist was designed for top roping. Like a million threads have argued B4, it’s worth a look, too.
Doesn't that have a toothless cam design? It's also rated to 6000lbs, not 880lbs.
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grundlebug
Apr 21, 2004, 11:11 PM
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Clove hitch and a clutch. No camming, no teeth.
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urbansherpa
Apr 22, 2004, 12:28 AM
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I now use a Petzl SHUNT. It is recommended for top-rope solo belay (according to my hang-tag instructions, and Petzl's PDF).
It has no 'teeth' on it, but has a smooth cam. It is therefore DESIGNED to slip at a certain force (don't remember... 4, or 7 kn?) to lessen shockload.
Although I've tried ....I can't get it to slip too much at all. (I tend to test all my new toys under control to see if I can get them to fail)
It is self-feeding when you put a 3-5lb weight on the bottom of the rope. I use a 2nd, looped line for backup.
The shunt can also be used for a rappel back-up, and takes 2 ropes. I suppose you could use it for a regular top-rope belay back-up.
You can also read about the SHUNT, and others at http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/highmountainmag/equipmentnotes/march2003/mar03.html (scroll way down) ... a British magazine
Anyway, so far I like it. If you are just doing uncomplicated (non-overhanging) TRSB then this would merit your consideration.
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roseysnowcone
Apr 22, 2004, 2:16 AM
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Jim Davis' profile:
8 routes climbed
20 gear reviews
Just like every SAR tool I've ever met.
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 3:17 AM
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"i said DUDE~~~ don't mess with me. I'm on Search and Rescue"
YA HA ha HA hahahahahahahahahahahahah ha ha ha hhhaaaaaaa ha aha hahahah yardee hardee ha ha ha
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: Jim Davis' profile: 8 routes climbed 20 gear reviews Just like every SAR tool I've ever met.
Sorry, most of the route's I've done are at Eagle's Bluff, Parks Pond, (both in Clifton, Maine) The Precipice in Acadia, Maine and Birdsboro PA.
Why don't you look them up, and see how many route there are added at each of those places on this site. Then find out how many routes there really are at each of those places. There are over 20 in Birdsboro, and 80+ between Eagles and Parks. Well over 30 at the Precipice too.
But you probably know that, cause you obvisiouly know everything about me simply by looking at my online profile.
But yea, what the hell was I thinking sharing my opinions of the gear that I've used with people who are looking for others' opinions. That's almost being....constructive.
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flamer
Apr 22, 2004, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: You guy's need to get over this leading trad deal. I've spent so much time rigging systems that I really don't care what you guys say, I know my skills...leading trad isn't really high on that list now.
HaHa!!!
This guy is to easy to bait....maybe we should all just leave our spinny little jig's in our tackle box's and find someone harder to troll???
Captain rescue to the ...well, um....RESCUE!!!
josh
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 6:21 AM
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well, atleast you picked a fitting user name.
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 12:42 PM
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Un Jim?, ….it’s just the…
DUDE don’t question me- I’m on Search and Rescue
And oh yea. Just did my first trad lead ever… . 5.2 took like 4 hours
Now we all gotta do our first trad lead.. . . but people here with cred.. . who can spew with authority have done like..
5000 trad leads. Or so… .
versus one …or so..
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 1:10 PM
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I'm not telling people not to question me, I've just been exposed to some information that some people haven't. That's all.
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flamer
Apr 22, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: well, atleast you picked a fitting user name.
HaHa!!! that's funny cause you don't have the slightest clue about my user name!!!
But I'll tell you this- I've rescued WAY more people than you ever will.
josh
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 10:56 PM
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flamer, better not mess with him..
he's on RESCUE TEAM, DUDE
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jamgray
Apr 23, 2004, 1:40 PM
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A Camp BLOCCANTE LIFT works great , it doesn't eat the rope the way the viscious toothed Petzl does and it has a relativly easy unloading trigger for when you need to back down. using a sewn runner over your shoulder and cliping into that also helps the rope feed better.
Compact and light rope clamp for use with ropes with a diameter from 8 to 11 mm.
Equipped with an efficient locking system suitable for use in all conditions and does not damage the rope.
Made from 7075 – T6 aluminium alloy.
95 g
.http://www.camp.it/uksetcatalogo.htm
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flamer
Apr 24, 2004, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: flamer, better not mess with him.. he's on RESCUE TEAM, DUDE
NO KINDING!!!!
The guy won't stop PMing me....Wahhh you guys should leave me alone...I'm on a rescue team....wahhh I'm right and everybody else is wrong....WAHHHH....
Dude better man up or even the rescue slugs are going to boot him.
josh
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stymingersfink
Apr 24, 2004, 5:07 PM
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[quote="jimdavis"]Mountains are like women; you'll never get on top of 'em unless you take your time.
quote]
Take your time jim, you still might get there.
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rockitjeff
Apr 24, 2004, 8:06 PM
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“Wahhh you guys should leave me alone.. “
You know Flamer, I’ve taken a liking to this thread ‘cause Jim is interesting. He may be a good guy, just misguided. Blind to the errors of his ways. All that “net” knowledge or “classroom” learnin’ / not enough just plain climbing experience..
Like gri-gri’s and severed ropes .Hmmm.. what bullkrap thread did you read THAT tidbit on, Jim? Gri-gris have been known (rarely) to fail in leader fall situations, but it has not been due to cord being severed in real life. Maybe in a laboratory? ..
Dude.. I’m rescue team...
Yea yea. It’s the uniform with the badges, I know. Sort of makes you feel like a TOOL. And all the groovy rigging you get to play with.
Wierd. You write that you’ve taken scads of classes, .. … spent some coin, I’d bet… And yet you say “I just started leading cause up until recently I haven't had the money for my own gear
Damn, kid. Stop with all the organized jive. Go climbing. Search team has enough qualified people without you tagging along. Ditto those classes you’ve been taking (and TEACHING???? I read that you TEACH intermediate climbing courses????
“taught TR Anchors courses, Intermediate Climbing courses, ect, “
What do you call a person who just struggled up his first 5.5 trad lead? Um…. A beginner????? Teaching intermediate climbing courses???? Wow. That’s whacked.
So when Jim writes “so I know that I can get myself out of pretty much any situation that I'll encounter climbing.” Ha. Yea except maybe a trad lead with a wee bit of a runout. Say a 5.3 where you got to go a ways? What gear or rigging or theory will get you out of that one, Jim?
Oh yea~! The rescue team. As long as you can stay frozen in one place for an hour or two.
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jimdavis
Apr 24, 2004, 10:00 PM
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yeah, i assist on intermediate, intro and tr anchors courses. cause pretty much everyone i climb with trusts my knowledge and setups. but you all obivously know more about me from reading my internet posts, than anyone who's climbed with me knows.
let me bask in your wisdom. :roll:
teach me how to know everything like you guys do...please?
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rockzen
Apr 24, 2004, 10:40 PM
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A link worth reading:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/...df/2001/crr01364.pdf
According to them, camming devices can and have cut ropes. As well, some of them will fail around 4kN. A person just hanging on a rope is about 0.69kN (F(N)=ma; 70kg or 154lbs *9.8m/s^2). Start taking some small falls, and I think the force could easily get up around 2kN-4kN.
I'm not saying you should use one device or another, or what you should or should not do. Just highlighting the risks.
My contribution to the pissing contest...
Rockzen...
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akclimber
Apr 24, 2004, 11:27 PM
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perhaps a pulling of heads out of asses is in order here? everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, if jim or any other person chooses NOT to use a specific device, that is his\thier choice.
"But I'll tell you this- I've rescued WAY more people than you ever will. "
come on now, is there a competition i did not know about?
"I'm not telling people not to question me, I've just been exposed to some information that some people haven't. That's all."
and what if he has, wouldnt that make u guys feel like a bunch of asses...
"I'm not saying you should use one device or another, or what you should or should not do. Just highlighting the risks. "
agreed
now pull really really hard and u folks might become unstuck...
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flamer
Apr 25, 2004, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: A link worth reading: http://www.hse.gov.uk/...df/2001/crr01364.pdf According to them, camming devices can and have cut ropes. As well, some of them will fail around 4kN. A person just hanging on a rope is about 0.69kN (F(N)=ma; 70kg or 154lbs *9.8m/s^2). Start taking some small falls, and I think the force could easily get up around 2kN-4kN. I'm not saying you should use one device or another, or what you should or should not do. Just highlighting the risks. My contribution to the pissing contest... Rockzen...
DUDE!!! That thing is 166 pages long!! Please tell me you didn't read the whole thing!!
I DID NOT so tell me the cam device's that cut these ropes...did they have teeth???
Because it would be the TEETH that cut the rope NOT the cam. There is a difference.
josh
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flamer
Apr 25, 2004, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: perhaps a pulling of heads out of asses is in order here? everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, if jim or any other person chooses NOT to use a specific device, that is his\thier choice. "But I'll tell you this- I've rescued WAY more people than you ever will. " come on now, is there a competition i did not know about? "I'm not telling people not to question me, I've just been exposed to some information that some people haven't. That's all." and what if he has, wouldnt that make u guys feel like a bunch of asses... "I'm not saying you should use one device or another, or what you should or should not do. Just highlighting the risks. " agreed now pull really really hard and u folks might become unstuck...
Pull your heads out of your a$$es!!! LOL!!!
Dude that's the funniest thing I've ever heard!! You come up with that yourself??
And In case you don't realise it, by contributing you- bent right ever and inserted your own head...
josh
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rockitjeff
Apr 25, 2004, 2:43 AM
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Jim writes” let me bask in your wisdom”
Well, you are on one right path by having friends who know their stuff. But my opinion is - it is all about passion for climbing. Are you are climber? Or just some kind of a social "have to do it in a group" recreationalist and it could be rigging or teachiing or whatever.
That’s it. No wisdom beyond it's all about the rock. Either you love it and want not much more than an opportunity to climb your ass off every chance you get and are hooked for life. Or hang it up. Climbing really is not a suitable activity as a mere hobby.
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micahmcguire
Apr 25, 2004, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: perhaps a pulling of heads out of asses is in order here? everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, if jim or any other person chooses NOT to use a specific device, that is his\thier choice. "But I'll tell you this- I've rescued WAY more people than you ever will. " come on now, is there a competition i did not know about? "I'm not telling people not to question me, I've just been exposed to some information that some people haven't. That's all." and what if he has, wouldnt that make u guys feel like a bunch of asses... "I'm not saying you should use one device or another, or what you should or should not do. Just highlighting the risks. " agreed now pull really really hard and u folks might become unstuck... Pull your heads out of your a$$es!!! LOL!!! Dude that's the funniest thing I've ever heard!! You come up with that yourself?? And In case you don't realise it, by contributing you- bent right ever and inserted your own head... josh
....most assuredly
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jimdavis
Apr 25, 2004, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: Jim writes” let me bask in your wisdom” Well, you are on one right path by having friends who know their stuff. But my opinion is - it is all about passion for climbing. Are you are climber? Or just some kind of a social "have to do it in a group" recreationalist and it could be rigging or teachiing or whatever. That’s it. No wisdom beyond it's all about the rock. Either you love it and want not much more than an opportunity to climb your ass off every chance you get and are hooked for life. Or hang it up. Climbing really is not a suitable activity as a mere hobby.
No, I'd agree. I like climbing with friends, who doesn't? I get out when i can, if i had a car it'd be a lot more.
I got out today, lead up a 5.8. Went with a good friend of mine who guides for ACS. Took me about 10 mins, maybe a little more. Good fun climb, I had one bad cam that would've blew out, but all and all it was a good day.
Can't wait for the Gunks trip. I'll get some more climbs on my profile for ya'll then. :wink:
Cheers,
Jim
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jakewolf
Apr 26, 2004, 1:26 AM
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I have used a soloist and a grigri- both have performed fine for me. I reccomend the system mention earlier which ties the middle of the rope into the anchor and uses the self belay device on one side and the back up not on the second side. This what i feel best with. The grigri does not feed by itself, but is similar to the effort required in cliiping a piece. I know these are not the original question, but I have used both to tr solo and the both worked fine.
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moondog
Apr 27, 2004, 4:36 PM
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I DID NOT so tell me the cam device's that cut these ropes...did they have teeth??? Because it would be the TEETH that cut the rope NOT the cam. There is a difference.
Some of the devices that cut the rope have no teeth. The Grigri was not tested. I have never heard of an unmodified Grigri cutting a rope. I have heard that a modified Grigri can cut the rope, but have no documentation on this.
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sandstone
Apr 29, 2004, 10:24 PM
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After looking at all the devices out there I ended up buying a Rescuecender for solo TR. I chose it because it has a large toothless cam, and a large curved pocket for the rope/cam interface (i.e. no sharp pinch point, no sheath ripping, very rope friendly). It's designed to slip some under very heavy loads.
It's not designed for solo TR, nor does the manufacturer recommend it for that use. That doesn't bother me a bit.
To me it was obvious that it is a rope friendly device that could handle a shock load if the shit hit the fan. That's exactly what I was looking for. It's worked for me, and if I ever have any doubts about it, they go away when I clip into a backup knot.
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sava6e
May 18, 2004, 5:48 AM
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i just bought a petzel ascender and used it for tr-ing and had luck wiht it, this thread has a lot of clash, it would be nice enough to get some good advice for me to start researching off of and as for the comment about if you dont know how you shouldnt be soloing, well maybe people are trying to do some pre-research or get other peoples opinions and ideas as to how they have had success or failure, words of wisdom " learn from others' mistakes". so maybe we are tryin to learn of definate do-not's. i do have a ? copncerning the ascender though, i read and re-read the directions and they say you can clip into the top or the bottom but if you clip into the bottom then you need a biner at the top as a rope guide, what do other people in here prefer, top or bottom. i have seen others drag them behind them, above was brought up a good point that if you fall your putting more shock onto the rope if it is drug behind you, any advice or any feedback??????? thanx
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brundige
May 18, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's?
rescue teams do use gri-gri, if your going to be ignorant dont open your mouth
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
May 18, 2004, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: Can't wait for the Gunks trip. I'll get some more climbs on my profile for ya'll then. :wink: Cheers,Jim
Oh no Jim, please don't come to the Gunks. We have enough dumba$$ noobs who swear they know what they're talking about taking hours to lead 50 ft. of 5.5. If you do, I'll have to TR solo past your sorry a$$.
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johnnord
May 19, 2004, 1:54 AM
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I think some playwright should turn this into an off-Broadway one-act, with Jim and Flamer in the lead roles. :lol:
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jimdavis
May 21, 2004, 7:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's? rescue teams do use gri-gri, if your going to be ignorant dont open your mouth
Yeah...your right... you obviouslly know what your talking about. Cause it'd make sence to use a device approved for 9.7-11 mill rope on 12 mill rescue line. :roll:
But assuming that it would function properly on 12mm, which it won't, you then run into the problem that it was designed for 1 climber, not 2+ people. In reading up on this I saw a few reports where a mallet was needed to unlock the cam once weighted with a 200kg (or whatever the number is) load.
But maybe the fact the Petzl doesn't approve it's use on 12 mm, or for rescue belays at all; or the fact that I've talked with 4 SAR teams that all say the same thing and won't use them...doesn't mean a thing.
If I'm wrong... show me.
I don't mind being wrong if you can prove it.
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curt
May 21, 2004, 8:14 AM
Post #71 of 74
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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In reply to: And here is what I know. In the first paragraph of petzl's mini traxion page they state it is among other things a tr self belay device. I will never generate enough force to break the thing while tr soloing, and like tedc said, if you can manage to do this you are doing something terribly wrong. Next, my system always has a sufficient backup. And finally the numerous routes I have used this device for it has worked perfectly. I would recommend this device for tr soloing. So what was the question you sent to petzl anyway?
Amen. What else needs to be said? I have also used the mini-traxion device for TR soloing with zero problems. Or.....maybe I'm actually dead and I'm posting from the other side???????? Haha.
BTW, if you really dont like the teeth of the mini-traxion device, use a Gibbs Ascender.
Curt
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curt
May 21, 2004, 8:25 AM
Post #72 of 74
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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In reply to: yeah, i assist on intermediate, intro and tr anchors courses. cause pretty much everyone i climb with trusts my knowledge and setups. but you all obivously know more about me from reading my internet posts, than anyone who's climbed with me knows. let me bask in your wisdom. :roll: teach me how to know everything like you guys do...please?
Actually, maybe you should listen to people who have far more experience than you do and who know much more than you do about these things.
Curt
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rockitjeff
Nov 19, 2007, 5:38 AM
Post #73 of 74
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Registered: Jul 13, 2002
Posts: 143
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classic thread
just bought a mini-trax to suppliment the Soloist I use.'
like the idea of the mini trax on the highball boulders 'cause i don't need a chest harness.
Soloist requires a chest harness, and I feel like a dweeb wearing it. which has not stopped me from using it 100 + times.
but i think i'll like the mini trax |
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flamer
Nov 19, 2007, 5:03 PM
Post #74 of 74
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Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
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Ha!
Thanks for bringing this up again Jeff...I got a hell of a laugh out of it !
josh
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