|
tritype3
Jun 11, 2004, 2:40 PM
Post #1 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 15
|
My climbing partner and I plan to do a winter ascent of the Grand Teton this christmas. This climb will be our first climb in the Tetons in addition to being our first alpine style climb. We are looking for any advice/reccomendations regarding climbing the Grand, good or bad, i.e. training for the climb, where to get good photos in the winter, topos, route descriptions, gear reccomendations, etc.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
Jun 11, 2004, 3:04 PM
Post #2 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
Your first alpine ascent and your first climb in the tetons... and presumably your first winter ascent and a hard north face at that? Sounds like it will be a fine day to die... and a hell of a way to get flamed on your first post. Nice.
Ha hah aha. *giggle, snort, giggles....* T1
If by some meraculous chance that you are serious... make the entire list above not your 1st, but maybe your 50th, and you will be off to a good start.
|
|
|
|
|
climbingnurse
Jun 11, 2004, 3:22 PM
Post #3 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 420
|
In reply to: This climb will be our first climb in the Tetons in addition to being our first alpine style climb.
My advice would be to do that next christmas or even the christmas after. This christmas go up to the 'Dacks and climb Marcy and then Gothics, and then maybe a few harder peaks. Those will give you some small taste of what you'd be up against in the Tetons in winter.
Then this summer or next go spend some time doing 5th class alpine climbing in the Tetons or somewhere else out west. I think that after you've done those two things you will have some appreciation for how foolish your above post is.
|
|
|
|
|
elvislegs
Jun 11, 2004, 4:09 PM
Post #4 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
|
Why not skip The Grand and head strait for the Mont Blanc Massif, maybe solo. I mean, are you serious about this climbing thing or not???
|
|
|
|
|
mother_sheep
Jun 11, 2004, 4:22 PM
Post #5 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 3984
|
I'm with elvis! You nver know, he might be ready. Maybe he's been training at the gym. knuck, knuck
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 11, 2004, 4:40 PM
Post #6 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Bunch of wankers :D Any true alpinist knows that the Eigerwand in winter is the only choice for your first alpine climb 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
stirnie
Jun 11, 2004, 4:45 PM
Post #7 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 50
|
If your plans are set to come out this winter I would suggest climbing some other peaks before you hit the Grand. If you could, you might want to try to get out here before the snow sets in to get a feel for the mountains. Alpine climbing is nothing like your normal cragging. It is even more difficult in the Winter.
|
|
|
|
|
watchme
Jun 11, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #8 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 236
|
Nobody has even mentioned the serious avalanche terrain up there. Be sure to have all of your assessment/rescue skills dialed.
|
|
|
|
|
tritype3
Jun 11, 2004, 6:08 PM
Post #9 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 15
|
Ok, I put this forum up to get advice not to get blasted by those who felt the need. However, do not get me wrong I encourage responses that are against making this attempt. I even appreciate the responses that try to discourage me from this attempt. I only ask that if you are going to attack me personally that you provide me with a little substance or personal experience to validate your claim and provide me with a little bit of insight.
|
|
|
|
|
elvislegs
Jun 11, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #10 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
|
Ok. Sorry for the psuedo flame.
Here is my advice:
Just about any route in the Tetons will be a serious route. Winter conditions in western Wyoming are rough, and undpredictable.
Basically , what you are thinking of doing requires alot of avalanche training, route finding skills, weather awareness, and ALPINE CLIMBING EXPERIENCE. In short, you need to be a seasoned alpinist before you take on such an ambitious goal.
Climbing the Grand in winter for your very first route is pretty much suicide.
Your spirit is admirable, but you need to start smaller.
|
|
|
|
|
joshklingbeil
Jun 11, 2004, 6:31 PM
Post #11 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 403
|
Make sure you tell the rangers that you have never climbed in alpine conditions and to have SAR ready for rescue......
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Jun 11, 2004, 7:01 PM
Post #12 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: Ok, I put this forum up to get advice not to get blasted by those who felt the need. However, do not get me wrong I encourage responses that are against making this attempt. I even appreciate the responses that try to discourage me from this attempt. I only ask that if you are going to attack me personally that you provide me with a little substance or personal experience to validate your claim and provide me with a little bit of insight.
Most folks who've summitted the Grand in the winter count it among their better days in the mountains amongst the "many" routes they've done in the Tetons.
Will be a combo of luck, conditions and weather. Not uncommon to find -30F in the Tetons in late December (my only attempt it was -30F in the valley over x-mas).
Its a hard thing to plan for from afar...unless you have a bunch of time to wait out poor conditions and weather.
You have no alpine climbing experience but you want to climb the Grand, in winter (and amidst the shortest days of the year) as your first? Hmmm. A fool and his money are soon parted?
I you have access to the Mount Washington area, there's tons of training ground. But...remember...the parkin' lot of the Grand is over a 1000 feet higher than the summit of Mount Washington (although, all things being equal, Mount Washington can be a cruel mistress too, eh? I'd say on average much worse weather and conditions on Mount Washington). The vertical relief from the valley floor to the summit is 7000'+. Its a big hunk to bite off. Combine that with mandatory easy fifth class in the best of conditions and with perfect routefinding...and...well...
Good luck.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
Jun 11, 2004, 7:29 PM
Post #13 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
In reply to: Ok, I put this forum up to get advice not to get blasted by those who felt the need. However, do not get me wrong I encourage responses that are against making this attempt. I even appreciate the responses that try to discourage me from this attempt. I only ask that if you are going to attack me personally that you provide me with a little substance or personal experience to validate your claim and provide me with a little bit of insight.
Obviously you got a strong reaction, which is not personal, but based on the information that you provided and objectives that you listed. However, not everyone who looks for advice here goes about it the way you did... and likewise not everyone gets the reaction you got.
|
|
|
|
|
crossfit2
Jun 14, 2004, 7:14 PM
Post #14 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2004
Posts: 61
|
I have climbed the Grand in the summer, the fall, and the winter. I have never succesfully climbed the grand in the winter(three attempts). Winter makes the climb a different proposition all together. Many things need to come together for a succesful attempt and winter weather in western Wyoming is fickle to say the least. Slide danger is immense in Garnett canyon and above the meadows with little room for error. All the tourists on the trade routes in the summer (the ones that knock shit down on you on the Black ice couloir) are gone. The guides are gone. There will be noone up there but you and it can be a lonely place. I'm not trying to be some kind of know it all I just think that you need to look at the risks involved and decide what is right for you. I would love to say that I summited in the winter but three strikes and Im out (plus I have two kids) and man it gets cold up there! I think you would be better served doing something in the Winds, or a less committing peak in the tetons. You should at the very least climb the Grand in the summer via your proposed route and just know that it will be a lot different come winter but at least you will have some visual reference points when you are in a white out and you cant feel your feet or nose and vertigo sets in.
|
|
|
|
|
mesomorf
Jun 14, 2004, 7:41 PM
Post #15 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2002
Posts: 397
|
The key to a winter ascent in the Tetons (assuming fitness, avalanche awareness, mountain sense, prior experience, gear, skiing ability, etc. are all already in place) are the conditions.
Having to fit a trip in during a pre-determined timeframe is almost certainly a recipe for failure - though it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be a learning experience. Hopefully not a fatal learning experience.
The way to get good conditions is to be able to wait until they are right, and then strike quickly.
Sometime around the middle of January there is often an extended period of high pressure. This means very cold temps in the valley, but inversion will be in place - meaning it's warmer, even comfy, up high. And no new snow.
Be careful going into a new winter environment where you haven't been able to keep tabs on the evolving snowpack since the beginning of the season. And/or, know how to analyze a snow pit that you've dug down to the ground. Or several pits, on varying aspects and elevations.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jun 14, 2004, 7:44 PM
Post #16 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Dude. You Claim to want to climb a major mtn in winter as your first alpine climb and then you cry when you get teased a litte bit for being foolish. Now that smells like a tool to me :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jun 14, 2004, 8:15 PM
Post #17 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
The best possibility is that you will get lucky and not be burried by an a avalanche and, you will gain about a thousand vertical feet on your skis and climbing skins with all your alpine gear on your back before running out of energy and daylight, and will head back for the car. You will then have an oportunity to make some reasonable plans over hot chocolate.
Seriously, even the approach to the lower saddle in winter is WAY more serious than anything you should take on for a first alpine climb. Try the East face of Teewinot in summer and see how you like it. Then try one of the technical ridges on Symmetry in summer. Add length, technical difficulty, danger, and commitment in small steps, and add them one at a time. This should be obvious in any game where your life is at stake.
No one should flame you for not knowing anything. But when your question suggests you don't even SUSPECT anything, people are left wondering if it's a troll, an insult to their intelligence and hard work, or just Darwinism in action.
|
|
|
|
|
theclimber
Jun 16, 2004, 9:40 PM
Post #18 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 22, 2002
Posts: 59
|
Man, dont listen to these goons. As far as they are concerned, if you walk out your front door you could be seriously injured and may even die from those injuries. I know you posted for some advice but you picked the wrong site. Half these jack asses dont even know anything and are more prompted to give out insults or give their GENRE of climbing knowledge. Is it risky, sure it is, but go check it out for yourself. Call, email or talk to one of the many guides in the Teton area and get their take on it. I am sure they will lead you in the right direction. Personally, I think you have balls and I admire that. You dont see that too often because everyone on here thinks your going to die and try to play big chief rather than little indian. Go get it and let me know the results!!
|
|
|
|
|
natas
Jun 16, 2004, 10:28 PM
Post #19 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 49
|
climbing in the winds in the winter is no different than the tetons. like to see you do a winter ascent of gannett peak in the winter.
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Jun 16, 2004, 10:35 PM
Post #20 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: climbing in the winds in the winter is no different than the tetons. like to see you do a winter ascent of gannett peak in the winter.
Hmmm....I'd argue there are pretty big differences...mostly, related to distance and access.
Windy's ain't a weekend place, unlike the Tetons. Look at all the winter ascents done in the Tetons, some, like the Grand, in a day. Compare to Gannett. Probably hasn't been done in less than 3 days in winter? I've heard tell of long, hard trips to do Gannett in the winter. Much bigger deal than the Grand, IMHO.
Sky's Witness...great book.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
natas
Jun 17, 2004, 3:34 PM
Post #21 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 49
|
it sounded like crossfit2 was trying to say that doing somthing in the winds in the winter was easier than the grand, that is just not true.
|
|
|
|
|
theclimber
Jun 17, 2004, 4:46 PM
Post #22 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 22, 2002
Posts: 59
|
Winter with Jackson Hole Mountain Guides
WINTER TRIPS SCHEDULE 2003 - 2004
• Grand Teton Winter Ascent
A one week mountaineering ascent of perhaps the most stunning mountain in the lower 48. Often used as a warm-up for Denali. Only the hardy need apply.
$1995/person for two or more.
3/13 - 3/19
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jun 17, 2004, 8:39 PM
Post #23 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
Sure, going with a guide is a way to make it relatively safe. But it's not remotely the same thing as climbing it by yourself. Having someone else do all the decision making, all the routefinding, and of course, all the leading are just some of the things that make being a client different from being an alpinist.
It's also why people routinely get up routes with guides that would be pure russian roulette for them if they went on their own.
Look, there's always a chance these guys could make it, and even make it back. I just don't want to encourage anyone to confuse blind, ignorant reliance on luck with boldness.
|
|
|
|
|
theclimber
Jun 17, 2004, 9:45 PM
Post #24 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 22, 2002
Posts: 59
|
I just put that up there for his reference. If the guy wants to go on his own than he has my support. I hope he tries it on his own. If he wants to hire a guide the first time than he can reference the above post about the guides.
|
|
|
|
|
crossfit2
Jun 19, 2004, 10:11 AM
Post #25 of 35
(3397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2004
Posts: 61
|
you guys are right about the winds I was just thinking of something less technical though more of a slog. I think the post regarding Teewinot or some of the satellite peaks has some merit if he wants something quick and fast
|
|
|
|
|
dairyfarmer
Jun 19, 2004, 12:25 PM
Post #26 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2003
Posts: 51
|
[quote="paulraphael"]Sure, going with a guide is a way to make it relatively safe. But it's not remotely the same thing as climbing it by yourself. Having someone else do all the decision making, all the routefinding, and of course, all the leading are just some of the things that make being a client different from being an alpinist.
Paul,
I disagree. It oftem makes finiancial sence when time is limited. More summits for your time and money, particuarly if you don't live in a alpine region and are a stranger to the area. Also great way to learn. But yes, not the same as doing it yourself. However any alpine climb I have done, usually the most experienced member was assumed to be the leader and was expected to make the same decisions a guide would make, so I guess there's not that much difference, IMO Thanks, Dick]
|
|
|
|
|
drake
Jun 19, 2004, 1:34 PM
Post #27 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2004
Posts: 136
|
Notice that the guided trip for a "winter ascent" in the middle of March. Probably not just chosen at random but maybe because of better conditions and a higher chance of sucess.
The guys are not beating up up for fun. I don't think anyone hear wants you to get hurt and would rather read about your sucuessful trip climbing a peak that is better suited for a "1st alpine climb". Maybe look at the warnings and stack the odds of climbing something in your favor as not to waste a trip out west only to sight see, for the most part.
If someone posted "After climbing the West Butt on Denali with guide service, thinking of leading trip to climb K2" would have been met with same banter. You did not mention whether you have had any avalanche training/experience. That is a severe threat in that area in winter.
Fella's maybe he knows that his chances of summiting are very small and has chosen this mountain as his training ground. Knows very well that it might take several annual trips to climb it. He might have a great deal of experience on skis and skins in deep powder. He has just chosen not to list all his climbing, skiing, weather forcasting & backcountry experience. We just don't know.
You did ask for information and you are getting it in a round about way. The Grand in the winter is considered a pretty big objective for an experience mountaineer let alone, someone possible just starting the learning curve.
I got started by flying out to Rainier and doing the 5 day seminar. Glacier travel, practicing cravasse rescue, letting you "ice climb" on a tame serac. Then a hike to summit. Use the basics to build on. Then combining that with ice climbing, aid climbing and rock climbing, the choices become.......well....more than you can do in your lifetime. But you didn't ask for that so I'll shut up.
But the other hand, the bold ascents are the ones you have a tendancy to cherish.
Good luck and have fun
Cheers!
|
|
|
|
|
theclimber
Jun 19, 2004, 8:15 PM
Post #28 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 22, 2002
Posts: 59
|
Drake,
Perfect response. I liked it because you were constructive and stayed away from the demoralising banter unlike what a lot of people do on this site. I agree with you 100%.
|
|
|
|
|
pebbleman
Jul 8, 2004, 11:30 PM
Post #29 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 80
|
The Tetons in winter? I like it… Since it is still a free country (until Bush/Cheney get back in) by all means go right ahead, the winter mountains are truly amazing, you’ll have a great trip.
Suggestions? Here’s my suggestion… Train, Brother, TRAIN!!! You need to be doing your roadwork, 3-4X a week, with a pack with two 8mm ropes on board, mass pull-ups, bouldering in boots (yes, with the pack) dry-tooling on plastic or choss with your boots on, cool? You should be training every day, a couple evenings at the gym spotting the tail in their yoga kit ain’t gonna do it, the altitude will eat you alive, especially if you are from near sea level (i.e., the east coast).
Keep in mind Xmas is the shortest daylight spell of the year (it’s a pagan holiday to mark the return of the Sun, right?), Autumn before the heavy snow comes (you can boot up, you won’t need skis) or later in the Winter (longer days heavier snow/ice buildup on the peak) might be better picks, but if you want to go, then go!
And for Chrissakes go light! Read that Marc Twight book “Extreme Alpinism”, a bit of a rant and somewhat dated, but it has some useful information.
Let me know how you make out. Now go train!
Who knows, you might see me up there.
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Jul 8, 2004, 11:39 PM
Post #30 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
here:
http://www.exumguides.com/winter/wclimbs.shtml
Jack Tackle's outfit. read the requirements before they will even drag you up. Its not impossible, just not a walk int he park, so train, learn your schitt and maybe youll make it out and back and not on the SAR news.
|
|
|
|
|
johnhemlock
Jul 8, 2004, 11:48 PM
Post #31 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2004
Posts: 311
|
I tried it in late October about 8 years ago and it may as well have been winter. Icy, blowing snow, all the good stuff. Threw in the towel and helped rescue some gaper who got cliffed while hiking, spent the night out, and lost a toe or two.
Ignore those who want to shake a Darwinian fist at you and have a good time. I would say that avalanches are going to be your #1 enemy.
|
|
|
|
|
ullr
Jul 8, 2004, 11:54 PM
Post #32 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 338
|
Sensible winter ascent beta for the Tetons from someone who has climbed it four times in the winter (Owen-Spalding-Upper Exum) and a failed attempt on the N. Ridge.
The road closes waaayyyy before Lupine Meadows. The gate is back by the climbers cabins. This makes the slog in quite a bit longer. Bring skis if you have them, snow shoes are slow and inefficient. It is 5,000 vertical feet to the Lower Saddle, then another 2k to the summit.
The most important safety aspect of a mid winter ascent is avalanche awareness and safety. You must be good at route finding, avy danger assessment, have a transceiver (and know how to use it), probe, shovel, and an Avalung wouldn't hurt. For a route like the Owen Spalding, travelling safely in avy terrain is the crux.
The headwall above the 'meadows' can have some nasty avy prone slopes. As well as the headwall to the Lower Saddle. Often times the Owen Spalding itself can be a bit free of deep snow. Especially the terrain above the Upper Saddle.
Day One: If you are acclimated and fit you can get to the base of the headwall just below the Lower Saddle in one long day. Beware of your bivi location. Lots of avy paths can rifle down on you. The safest spot is on the lower saddle, but it's windy and much colder.
Day Two: Posthole, slog, or whatever to the Upper Saddle and the start of the technical climbing. Beware of the last 300 or so feet to the Upper Saddle, it can be avy prone. Usually the technical climbing goes well. The route is often free of snow enough to get around easy.
Weather: Sometimes Jackson and the valley will be in an inversion. You will wake up freezing your ass off and find that the following nights are warmer up higher. Seems strange, but it happens. I woke up in the parking lot in -30F one morning, the next morning around 11k it was much warmer.
Climbing: The technical part of the route above the Upper Saddle is easy. Climbing it in plastics and crampons is no big deal. There are actually several variations on the upper sections. Just pick one that suits you. Some route finding is necessary.
Good luck. Once again, avy savy is your MOST important asset to staying alive.
Dream big. :D
|
|
|
|
|
ullr
Jul 9, 2004, 3:07 AM
Post #33 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 338
|
I can relate to your enthusiasm for the unknown.
When I was a climbing noob with a bit of alpine experience, I was all gung-ho to take a whack at the following that would have killed me at the time:
Infinite Spur on Foraker (had only been done twice at the time)
N. Face of Alberta (hey, it's only 5.9 A3 right?) Ha!!!!!!
Emperor Face on Robson (there's a reason why it had not been repeated)
Good thing the Darwin Fist didn't take hold.
|
|
|
|
|
trx
Jul 13, 2004, 1:03 AM
Post #34 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 20
|
Can I come, Thinking of snowlerblading black ice couloir?
|
|
|
|
|
drake
Jul 20, 2004, 12:42 PM
Post #35 of 35
(2670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2004
Posts: 136
|
UllR:
What's wrong with the Infinite Spur? Looks like fun to me. :wink:
Actually hoping to scratch up a partner to take a shot at it in the next couple years? I think finding a partner is going to be harder than climbing it. :shock:
Hey, the good news is that, the rock is better on the Spur than it is on Alberta or Robson!
Drake
Dare to fail!
|
|
|
|
|
|
