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peanutbutter
Sep 10, 2004, 4:39 PM
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I see your point ricardo, but it is that very pitch-by-pitch beta that is changed now. So no matter how much homework I do now, I will not know what I am in for until I am in it.
I am not asking for anyone to deliver anything to any individual, rather, the "El Cap Police" should give the community a better idea of what was chopped and where, so we can all make informed decisions. I am not asking for exact locations or head-counts, just the general idea.
I think a good analogy would be to re-route a very popular hiking trail to a better location without telling the map-makers. It will certainly result in adventures, but you're not really doing anyone any favors.
For the record, I got up Zodiac last August. It was great.
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ricardol
Sep 10, 2004, 4:49 PM
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PB ...
i stand corrected then ..
.. i wasn't trying to put you down ..
.. though i'm guessing that you would be able to answer your own question rather well .. (since you've been up these pitches) .. consider "what if 90% of all the fixed gear on the route was gone .. what would i need?" .. and there is your answer.
-- ricardo
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jello
Sep 10, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: I see your point ricardo, but it is that very pitch-by-pitch beta that is changed now. So no matter how much homework I do now, I will not know what I am in for until I am in it. I am not asking for anyone to deliver anything to any individual, rather, the "El Cap Police" should give the community a better idea of what was chopped and where, so we can all make informed decisions. I am not asking for exact locations or head-counts, just the general idea. I think a good analogy would be to re-route a very popular hiking trail to a better location without telling the map-makers. It will certainly result in adventures, but you're not really doing anyone any favors. For the record, I got up Zodiac last August. It was great.
Chill out PB.
Chopperhead made a very detailed account of what went on up there and will make it public info ASAP.
PS I'm sorry your supertopos wall guidebook is not as accurate any more.....I guess you can keep whining about it......
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lambone
Sep 10, 2004, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: ...but it is that very pitch-by-pitch beta that is changed now. So no matter how much homework I do now, I will not know what I am in for until I am in it. ....the "El Cap Police" should give the community a better idea of what was chopped and where I think a good analogy would be to re-route a very popular hiking trail... For the record, I got up Zodiac last August. It was great.
What? Are you kidding me. First of all, you never know what you're in for until you are in it. Second, if you don't feel comfortable climbing a route without a supertopo...then don't. Third, the "El Cap" police have pretty clearly stated their goal. Remove bolts not placed on the FA and all fixed gear. What else do you need to know? Don't know what the FA bolts are...not doing enough homework I guess.
Fourth...Big Wall Climbing is not hiking.
And last, nice job on your climb!
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lambone
Sep 10, 2004, 7:05 PM
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Fifth,
Knowing Copperhead...I think I can say with confidence that he is sick and tired of the general trend in Big Wall Climbing where people have grown to expect a route to be all set up for them so their climb is essentialy going through the motions of advancing up the wall in aiders and managing the ropes and gear.
My opinion is that what he, gabe, and Ivo did is more of a statement towards the direction of the sport in general, or could be abstracted as that. That it's time to learn the skills you need on a wall, BEFORE climbing one.
Then again, maybe they just wanted to do the route justice by cleaning it up and don't really give a fuck about the general trend in climbing or anyone else...
plus, if you want a route where the protection is all straightforward and easy, there are plenty to chose from.
whatever, it's all good.
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ricardol
Sep 10, 2004, 8:44 PM
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[troll]
so .. what is the proper thing to do on a big wall route when going past fixed gear? -- (heads, pins, stuck gear, etc)
.. should it be removed .. or left behind?
[/end]
.. even though the question is loaded .. i am interested in opinions.
-- ricardo
PS. i'm guessing the answer is it depends .. like the answer might be different for fixed pins vs fixed heads, etc.
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peanutbutter
Sep 10, 2004, 9:02 PM
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Jello, your info has left me chilled. I didn't know those guys were keeping track. Thanks.
Lambone, I must disagree with you that "you never know what you're in for until you're in it." Any modern topo (yes that includes ST, but also quite a few others) of any route will give you an idea of what you are in for. For example, do you rack up for Sunkist and WFLT with the same gear? Of course not, because the published documentation (topos) indicates what you're in for.
You totally got me on the FA bolts.
As for the general trend of climbing being toward weakness and cowardice, well, I suppose it is. I'm certainly not 1% the man that Jim Beyer is, that's why I'm in the Valley and not in Greenland. Let's face it, if you want a real adventure experience (no possibility of rescue) you will not find it in Yosemite. That's not to say that it is safe, perhaps only to say that it is not as dangerous as it could be.
I guess my point is that this issue of cleaning and restoring routes is complex and dynamic. I do not have the answers, but I know it should be the subject for deep thought and constructive debate rather than cheap shots and rash action.
Something to think about as you paste the fifteenth head on the first pitch of our favorite route.
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peanutbutter
Sep 10, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #108 of 158
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Great question ricardo...
I clip it and if it is re-useable I try to clean it for selfish (booty) and unselfish reasons.
Fixed pins I always leave, it reduces scar expansion.
Fixed heads I leave for similar reasons, though I have cleaned a few broken heads, just to keep things neat.
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billcoe_
Sep 13, 2004, 8:35 PM
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I understand the desire to clean and restore. However, Karlbaba has raised some points which only I appear to have agree with, and I totally agree with him, 100%.
If a fixed pin get pulled to "clean" up the route, and the next 500 people all get to have the "thrill" of placing and pulling their very own pin in this placement, do you then wind up with a blown out Serenity Crack or Bishops Balcony kind of thing, where the only placement that will work is a #11 hex which gets hammered endwise into the gaping hole. Even when the 11 hex then gets "cleaned" in the next "cleaning and restoring" project - the gaping hole remains staring in wonder of mute testamony to the preceeding 500 pitons. At this point, you now get a bolt and an ugly gaping POS looking hole.
I in no way am dissing the guys who wanted to (and did) spend some hard time in a labor of love to make the route orgional, but it is a huge overriding question which remains.
The only way to avoid the inevitable damage caused to the route from the 500 parties nailing themselves is to restrict the amount of people who can climb the route, like rafting Grand Canyon - a lottery 4 years in advance where say 12 people a year get to do the route for instance, or you leave those pins fixed.
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punk
Sep 13, 2004, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: I understand the desire to clean and restore. However, Karlbaba has raised some points which only I appear to have agree with, and I totally agree with him, 100%.
you not alone and I was referring to that earlier before the wanker bringmedeath posted his bull
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lambone
Sep 14, 2004, 12:05 AM
Post #111 of 158
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In reply to: Lambone, I must disagree with you that "you never know what you're in for until you're in it." Any modern topo (yes that includes ST, but also quite a few others) of any route will give you an idea of what you are in for.
peanutbutter,
True...but even if you have a supetopo that says teh at p28 goes at C3+F. Do you really know what your in for? What if the fixed gear is gone or rivets/bolts have been pulled or chopped? As in the case of Zodiac.
I think part of their statement is ~don't come up here expecting el cap to be easy~.
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climbhigher
Sep 14, 2004, 2:03 AM
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Not to sound harsh or that i am badass or anything. But more importantly then bringing the right gear is to bring the correct amount of experience. It's all relative. But it seems to me practicing nailiing on the nearest road cut near your house makes sense, before heading up on the big stone. I am guessing alot of that fixed gear and chicken bolts where placed up there because of a lack of experience.
I had over a decade of climbing experience before i had the oppurtunity to climb El Capitan. And I didn't suffer and had lots of fun and success. Like I said it's all relative. But before you ski the blacks you usually ski the greens first. Unless you want to hack or worst yet kill yourself.
EL Capitan isn't fricking easy!!!!! By any route.
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karlbaba
Sep 14, 2004, 2:32 AM
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Thanks for the support Billcoe.
The truth is that the devil is in the details. The cleanup crew says that a lot of the pins they pulled were angles and that aliens fit fine in those placements. Personally, I don't remember fixed angles on the route but they could be a recent addition from speed climbers and free climbers who wanted to equipe the route for their puposes.
I also commend their removal of dead heads and rurps. That's a lot of work and a service much appreicated.
On the other hand, my criticism still stands regarding removing fixed heads and pins that will have to be replaced with more pins.
The deed is done. Let's see what the reality is and deal with it as wisely as possible. Both the community and the cleanup guys are giving this some well deserved thought and hopefully that leads to progress for everyone.
peace
karl
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billcoe_
Sep 14, 2004, 3:27 AM
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In reply to: Thanks for the support Billcoe. The truth is that the devil is in the details. The deed is done. Let's see what the reality is and deal with it as wisely as possible. Both the community and the cleanup guys are giving this some well deserved thought and hopefully that leads to progress for everyone. peace karl
Yup, I agree again and these more than likely were some of the best folks to clean it up it sounds like.
Punk, thats right, thank you.
Climbinghigher: that sounds good: HOWEVER, In reply to: But it seems to me practicing nailiing on the nearest road cut near your house makes sense, before heading up on the big stone. I am guessing alot of that fixed gear and chicken bolts where placed up there because of a lack of experience.
If you do a search on Coylecs posts, you will see where he is posting many times looking for a suitable place to nail in the Pacific Northwest. Any choss pile will do he posted. Repeadedly he is told "not there, not there, not there". Even told not to nail some routes listed as nailups in the guidebook at Beacon Rock. So, your post may be accurate, however........hmmmmm- might be the best place to nail around here is Yosemite:-)
It's nice to see things go clean to cease the careless and permanent destruction no matter if it's by begineers or experts, it is a very worthy goal.
I'd like to see the cleanup crew do a highly publicised "clean" ascent to show the climbing community how it is done in good style. Then perhaps everyone will aspire to a clean ascent and leave the bolts and pins at home. That way, when Gabe and Ammons sons try the route in 30 years, they are experincing pretty much their dads were confronted with.
What do you say guys? Be a great R and I artical! I still remember Rowell, Robinson and Hennings in National Geographic doing a clean ascent of Half Dome. 8^)
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climbhigher
Sep 14, 2004, 4:16 AM
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I am not saying it's bad to nail. What i am saying there's a difference between fixing a pin and placing a pin as you know. I guess i am stating the obvious. El Cap is a worthy goal for any climber, I agree. Just being that a goal. "Clean" climbing is so relative, i am not even going to go there.
Come on now, Colyec can't find a place to nail in the Pacific Northwest? He's not venturing very far. Have him PM me. There's a choss pile close to downtown Portland where you can nail all you want and nobody will give a dam. And if you do some gardening there while you're at it, The freeclimbers will be grateful. When i say Road Cut that's exactly what i mean that shit on the side of the road that's been blasted by dinamite.
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lambone
Sep 14, 2004, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Then perhaps everyone will aspire to a clean ascent and leave the bolts and pins at home. That way, when Gabe and Ammons sons try the route in 30 years, they are experincing pretty much their dads were confronted with.
uh, I'm pretty sure Gabe IS Ammon's son. ;)
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lambone
Sep 14, 2004, 8:18 PM
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oh, oops
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pmyche
Sep 14, 2004, 8:27 PM
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"I'd like to see the cleanup crew do a highly publicised "clean" ascent to show the climbing community how it is done in good style."
Knowing Bryan, I don't think he's huge on clean aid, and I don't think the work they did on Zod is principally to promote it. It's great if everyone minimizes hammer use, uses can hooks and clean pro whenever possible. If that comes out of their effort, all the better. I think the effort was more in reaction to the disrespect that the old classic FAs have received over the years; added bolts/holes, overdriven pins, lack of cleaning, innapropriate heads, perennial tat. (Some might propose that to nail at all is disrespectful.) I think if someone wants to nail on the Zodiac, he should do it - with copious prior nailing experience on junk rock and perhaps less-classic aid routes elsewhere, and having done many clean aid pitches beforehand. It's not the experienced, concsientious party that sparingly uses a hammer that put Zod in the condition it was; it's the unenlightened party that gets gripped (or is lazy) and makes no effort to offset their impact by doing that little extra that's not necessary to summit. If everyone who climbed the trades in the last decade went up with impact mitigation in mind (and acted on it), we would have a lot less work to do on these heavily-travelled routes. I'm not speaking down on anyone - I've been up there too without doing as much as I could to help the effort. I hope the discussion and the boys' great effort brings more awareness regarding our climbing impacts how we might keep them at least somewhat reeled in. I appreciate your sentiment none the less, billcoe. A clean ascent will, no doubt, be more committing now compared to pre-restoration. Cheers...
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peanutbutter
Oct 8, 2004, 6:21 PM
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So what's the verdict? Has anyone been up the refurbished Zodiac? Has Chopperhead made his detailed record public yet?
Was it really 100+ bolts chopped? wow... it's a ton of stuff.
Anyone know where to see photos of the mank that was cleaned?
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bandycoot
Oct 8, 2004, 6:30 PM
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peanutbutter, there's a more detailed description of gear removed on Supertopo.com. I believe it's in a thread started by Karl Baba. Go check it out.
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jstp
Oct 8, 2004, 6:39 PM
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peanutbutter, a small pic of some of the gear cleaned is on the homepage of Evo's site, stonemonkeys.net. thirty plus pounds was the final total weight of all the crap they pulled. prety crazy.
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holdplease2
Oct 8, 2004, 8:24 PM
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And to nip one little rumor in the bud which has grown significantly in the past few days...
As stated by Gabe (one of the guys who cleaned the route) it was not 50, 70, or now as BP has heard, 100 bolts removed from Zodiac. The number is far less, not sure what, exactly.
-Kate.
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dsafanda
Oct 8, 2004, 9:38 PM
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I heard it was 250! No, really. :wink:
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lambone
Oct 8, 2004, 11:24 PM
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:roll:
Posted by Gabe McNeely (one of the clean-up crew) on supertopo:
"Lambone, ya musta heard wrong.....except for the 14th pitch above peanut, I think no more than 10 lead bolts were removed. Some beley bolts were R&R. The p5 variation as well as the free climb bolts were respected. Cheers Lambone!"
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