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ricardol
Aug 27, 2004, 9:38 PM
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you can catch a 1-sentence referemce to the bolt removal on zodiac on the latest Rock and Ice ..
.. i wont spoil everyone's fun by telling which page its in ..
-- ricardo
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twoliter
Aug 27, 2004, 11:43 PM
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I climbed the Zodiac in April and felt it was overbolted and had some worthless fixed gear on it, that said I would not have recommended the 2 year old bolts be chopped to preserve the original nature of the route simply due to the fact that the Rock is damaged each time someone takes it upon themselfs to improve the saftey or perserve the original nature of the route (adding and then two year later chopping bolts). After finishing the Zodiac I was asked by a couple of guys in the meadow what I thought of the bolting, my reply was I loved the anchors but thought the route had been overbolted. They just happened to be the guys that had over bolted it. I felt a bit sheepish for my comments on over bolting to some guys who had done so much work to improve the saftey of the route but at the same time it is important for them to get the feed back. It just illistrates that applying your personal ethics to an existing route is never the correct thing to do.
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pmyche
Aug 28, 2004, 6:56 PM
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2L, What did you mean by "worthless fixed gear"? In terms of fall arresting capability or not needed b/c there was other okay gear adjacent?
"the Rock is damaged each time someone takes it upon themselfs to improve the saftey or perserve the original nature of the route": The rock is damaged each time anyone uses a hammer, whether a new or experienced nailer, or a conscientious or sloppy person with intentions to make a route more aesthetic and truer to it's original character.
"...but thought the route had been overbolted": Are you talking about the p5 variation? Yes, it's primarily a bolt ladder. Aside from that, certainly holes (BAT hook and bolt) have been added since the FA, but you seem to insinuate that the guys in the meadow were responsible for all of it. You probably were talking to Nanook, who has done more big wall rebolting than anyone. Sometimes, without intimate historical knowledge of a route, retrobolts get inadvertently replaced. It's not a great thing from a historical standpoint, but it is what it is. Determining the exact hardware evolution of a route, what additions are okay with the FA party, and what additions are deemed acceptable by consensus is probably more work than to actually rebolt. This doesn't mean that rebolters shouldn't exhaust all resources to do these things before replacing bolts, and I think, predominantly, rebolters are quite conscientious about these aspects. Overall, I think the negative side of rebolting and restoration efforts is far, far outweighed by the resulting good. Speaking for the rebolters that I've the pleasure of knowing and working with: I don't think their motivation is one of selfishness - just the opposite. If it were, I don't think the guys in the meadow would have asked your opinion. Rebolting is, like climbing, often not absolute. In the big picture, though, I think it's a positive thing. Thanks for weighing in on the issues.
PS: To clarify: REbolting is replacing bolts placed or condoned by a FA party, using the same hole whenever possible. (Good, IMO.) RETRObolting is adding a bolt (or BAT hook hole) where one wasn't. (Undesirable IMO, but it can be necessary where a feature has fallen off or become useless.) Sorry if that's obvious, anyone...
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pmyche
Aug 28, 2004, 7:01 PM
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[delete]
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bringmedeath
Aug 28, 2004, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: Here some comments I heard “When my ass is on the line…Fvck clean climb brin’on da hammer” “I cant trust this little groove for a head I think I’ll put a bolt here” “Fvckit I cant reach this nut placement pass on the knife blade and hammer” “This hook cant sit on anything …gimi the drill“ Why do you think that with cleaning of this route this will stop IMHO they just opened it to more destruction |
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punk
Aug 28, 2004, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: You must be around some of the biggest lightweights in the sport! You're probably one of them.
No doubt…
But, can you close the rout to me can you put a petition to the senate(federal act) in order to stop me from going up there with group of "lightweights aid climbers" and fixing piece every 4 feet
You missing my point …my skill level is irrelevant
:twisted: :twisted:
BTW bringmedeath
[edit for Public peace and National security]
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yosemite
Aug 30, 2004, 7:23 PM
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Could it be that the Zodicleaners don't want that route to become the climbers' equivalent of the Half Dome cables route?
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twoliter
Aug 30, 2004, 8:34 PM
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pmyche
"worthless fixed gear"
Copper heads- broken wires, lift out placements, other good placements within reach
Pins=broken eyes (I guess these arent so worthless beings they are body weight holding)
"over bolted"
Huber bolt on the niple pitch
Bolts abouve Peanut Ledge (P-14)
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pmyche
Aug 31, 2004, 1:33 AM
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Thanks for clarifying, twoliter.
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waynski
Sep 2, 2004, 6:31 AM
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You should always leave any pins you place on a route. Just don't forget to tell me where and when you plan on climbing. I need some extra beer money.
Daryl, we love you brother.
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holdplease2
Sep 2, 2004, 6:50 AM
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Sure thing, a$$ jack, and if you can get to them, you can have them. ;)
Yer gonna have to me one hard-ass three pitch c1-nailin sunufabich to get em.
Yeah!
-Kate.
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jello
Sep 8, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Mission Accomplished. Zodiac cleaners topped out Monday evening. It took 6 full days of cleaning with the first 5 pitches fixed and cleaned.
Over 100 patched holes, a few belays beefed up, approximately 60 pins were removed, chicken bolts removed, hundreds of nuts, heads, deadheads, fixed cams, rurps, beaks, piles of webbing and duct tape - all weighing approximately 30 lbs cleaned from the Zodiac.
The line looks beautiful again. Now's the time to climb it. Let's all keep our gear on our rack and off of the rock.
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ammon
Sep 8, 2004, 10:53 PM
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Thanks for the update Jello.....
See you tonight in the Valley!!!
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dagawebb
Sep 9, 2004, 1:41 AM
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Is there a photo of the shit that came off the climb ????
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peanutbutter
Sep 9, 2004, 3:34 PM
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Will a new topo be made available of this clean route? With the reduced bolt count it seems more important than ever to get the word out there to keep bumblies like me from getting themselves killed.
Also, do the RURP scars take camhooks? Or should we just wait for the pinscars to evolve to take cams?
cheers, pb
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ricardol
Sep 9, 2004, 4:26 PM
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In reply to: Will a new topo be made available of this clean route? With the reduced bolt count it seems more important than ever to get the word out there to keep bumblies like me from getting themselves killed. Also, do the RURP scars take camhooks? Or should we just wait for the pinscars to evolve to take cams? cheers, pb
.. that would defeat the whole point i think .. the cleanup makes zodiac more of an adventure ..
take a decent pin rack .. and 3 or 4 #4 cams if you want to protect p14 .. bring lots of heads until the heading pitches get fixed again .
.. i dont think rurp scars would take camhooks .. they probably take micronuts .. or another rurp ..
-- ricardo
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jello
Sep 9, 2004, 6:44 PM
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Yes. I'm sure chopperhead will post one of the many junk pile pics.
Careful though, it may just blow your mind! :shock:
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pmyche
Sep 9, 2004, 7:37 PM
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"Will a new topo be made available of this clean route? With the reduced bolt count it seems more important than ever to get the word out there to keep bumblies like me from getting themselves killed."
Respectfully, PB: You alone are responsible for your safety on the wall - not a topo, not a topo publisher, not a land management agency and not someone who restores a route. An aid climb (any climb) may change at any time. Rock falls off routes. Key fixed pieces break or get cleaned. Topos are often wrong. Sure, harvest all the data possible before going up to glean the best sense of what to bring, but have the skills and the tools to deal with whatever conditions might be found on a route. If a person isn't willing to do that, that person should in no way be on a big wall.
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karlbaba
Sep 9, 2004, 9:11 PM
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When I soloed Zodiac in 1982, there wasn't much fixed gear and I nailed on most pitches, sometimes a lot. Remember, no aliens, camhooks or cams smaller than a 1 friend.
I went back and climbed it clean in 2002 and somebody must have just cleaned it cause it was tricky to get clean and very little fixed gear. For example, no fixed pieces on the black tower pitch until way high, and the Nipple started with a pin and then no fixed gear until a few feet from the nip. There were fixed heads where only heads would work.
So I was pretty surprised when later in the season, folks were already talking about mass quantities of fixed gear up there. That's how fast things change. It's possible that free climbers and speed climbers have deliberately encouraged the route to become more fixed, but that's a guess.
When I did the Shield around 1991, the headwall was all fat Lost Arrows. Looking back, I wonder if those clean Lost Arrow scars would have taken cam hooks if I had em. I bet many would have been bomber. It's sad that I hear they are now boxy sawed angle scars only a decade later. I mean, El Cap is almost forever and yet this classic route got beat out that fast. If only we could have started cam hooking the scars before they got so huge, then others in the future could have enjoyed a less blasted trip up that fantastic stretch of granite.
That's why I'm dissappointed that the Krew sees fit to remove fixed pins and heads from Zodiac. Let the damn climb say clean until we have the technology to do it clean without the fixed stuff. Setting Zodiac up for more pounding is a lasting and permanent disservice to the Stone and outweighs the temporary benefits gained by cleaning off the junk which returns in a season.
Peace
Karl
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punk
Sep 10, 2004, 1:56 AM
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Yeah Baba, ma point exactly
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diesel___smoke
Sep 10, 2004, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: Careful though, it may just blow your mind! :shock:
To the extent of those who do it for a living, Jello? :wink:
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diesel___smoke
Sep 10, 2004, 3:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Careful though, it may just blow your mind! :shock: Like those who do it for a living, Jello? :wink: |
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peanutbutter
Sep 10, 2004, 2:25 PM
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First, thanks for the info.
Second, of course it's more adventurous in a clean state, however, when a route becomes known as relatively easy, and then it is made substatially more difficult (for whatever reason; cleaning, rockfall, etc) shouldn't that information be documented and made public?
When I get on a wall I depend on a topo for directions and a general feel for what I'm in for. The general feel of p14 is very different now, right? While the bolts on p14 were clearly excessive, they allowed teams to bring fewer large cams, a load-lighter few of us can resist. This is the kind of information I'm talking about.
Lastly, thank-you karl for expressing the other side of the argument so well, it really needed saying.
pb
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ricardol
Sep 10, 2004, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: First, thanks for the info. Second, of course it's more adventurous in a clean state, however, when a route becomes known as relatively easy, and then it is made substatially more difficult (for whatever reason; cleaning, rockfall, etc) shouldn't that information be documented and made public? When I get on a wall I depend on a topo for directions and a general feel for what I'm in for. The general feel of p14 is very different now, right? While the bolts on p14 were clearly excessive, they allowed teams to bring fewer large cams, a load-lighter few of us can resist. This is the kind of information I'm talking about. Lastly, thank-you karl for expressing the other side of the argument so well, it really needed saying. pb
PB:
.. by the content of your post i am going to guess that you have never been up to the base of zodiac and looked up. the teams that think that zodiac is "relatively easy" and attempt zodiac as their first big wall are the ones that end up bailing after the first few pitches.
... nobodyis responsible for documenting the state of any route .. it is up to you to do as much homework as you think is neccesary prior to comitting a ny route... (and btw few other routes are as well docuented as zodiac .. there is even pitch-by-pitch beta available)
the changes to p14 are hardly revolutionary .. if you happen to arrive at that pitch with only 2 large cams, it would still be doable .. except that it would be a DFU pitch. (but C1 placements all the way up)
-- ricardo
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megableem
Sep 10, 2004, 4:07 PM
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