|
coldclimb
Nov 1, 2004, 7:36 PM
Post #2 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
I agree. :(
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 7:37 PM
Post #3 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
And yet you climbed... and clipped...
Boo hoo.
|
|
|
|
|
ema
Nov 1, 2004, 7:45 PM
Post #4 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2004
Posts: 29
|
so dont use the hangers
|
|
|
|
|
usmc_2tothetop
Nov 1, 2004, 7:50 PM
Post #5 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 661
|
Jesus..........I wonder if they lead it on trad gear to drill and place bolts.
"now that I have set up this 3 point anchor I can drill away...boy this gear placement sure is going to make bolting easy"
|
|
|
|
|
slavetogravity
Nov 1, 2004, 7:52 PM
Post #6 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 1114
|
In reply to: so dont use the hangers
Yes, god forbid the sport of climbing be something that pushes your physical and mental limits. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 7:53 PM
Post #7 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Is this the 10c on what i think is the Gorgeous Towers?
I hate to tell you this, kids, but bringing down a trad rack for one route - I dunno. Ethics are nice and all, but it IS a sport area. I get made fun of everytime I go because I bring my huge pack and people think I have the rack in there.
|
|
|
|
|
trenchdigger
Nov 1, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #8 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 1447
|
Just to note...
The Owens River Gorge is not really in the Sierra. Near the Eastern Sierra, yes, but not a part of it.
I don't know this specific route, but gorge rock is volcanic in nature and not very gear-friendly. See the last post in this thread for commentary on the quality of possible placements on this specific route: http://rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=56445 Did you climb the route? Can you attest to the fact that safe gear placements are present?
I don't like seeing bolts next to a crack any more than the next trad climber. However, I'd hesitate to react in disgust without first-hand knowledge of the route and some commentary from the developer.
~Adam~
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Nov 1, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #9 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
That's not the only bolted crack in Owens, and it doens't look like the one on Gorgeous Towers to me.
If you don't want to bring down a rack then maybe you don't need to climb it, eh? Or does everything have to be super easy and convenient.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sport climbing, but the bolted cracks at Owens are retarded and wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
salathiel
Nov 1, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #10 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 132
|
I have read that the cracks in ORG are bolted due somewhat to the rather fragile nature of the rock. Looks like a great climb though, either way.
Just my 10kbs
Blur
|
|
|
|
|
stevep
Nov 1, 2004, 8:29 PM
Post #11 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
Owens is a sport area, and only loosely qualifies as "the Sierras". And while it looks better now that water has been running again for some years, it's hardly a pristine wilderness.
If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em, but they're probably within the ethic of that area.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 8:32 PM
Post #12 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
I like that everyone else noted the "Sierra" misnomer. I thought if I pointed it out, I would just look silly.
And I've climbed bolted cracks in ORG. Boo hoo hoo. I've climbed non-bolted cracks, too. I agree that it is hardly a pristine wilderness and the ethics there are a little different than its topside neighbors.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Nov 1, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #13 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
I like to think of myself as a staunch traditionalist.
I have led a number of the crack lines in the gorge with gear.
In general, the gear in the gorge tends to be horrible. The rock is about 1/10 the density of granite. I would never bring a rack into the gorge again. That is pretty much the community concensus, thus the bolted cracks.
As far as gear routes go. Don't bother. Bolted granite cracks is another matter.
|
|
|
|
|
usmc_2tothetop
Nov 1, 2004, 8:36 PM
Post #14 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 661
|
I stand partially corrected. Trenchdigger has a point.
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 8:41 PM
Post #15 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:)
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 8:42 PM
Post #16 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Dude, back in the day, ORG was nothing but a "trundling" area.
|
|
|
|
|
yosemite
Nov 1, 2004, 8:46 PM
Post #17 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 331
|
Blasphemy
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 8:51 PM
Post #18 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
In reply to: A major part of this agrument is the following: Why should a handful of guys with drills get to declare an area a "SPORT" area?
The same could be said about many a trad area. Why do a handful of people get to declare an area a "TRAD" area? Say Paradise Forks? Where aretes w/o pro that get bolted get chopped?
You guys want your "special" places, we want ours 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 8:53 PM
Post #19 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:?
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 8:57 PM
Post #20 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:roll:
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 8:58 PM
Post #21 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: To Maculated: Listen little missy, you need to decide just how old you wanna be. First you call us all "kids" then you try sound like a kid yourself with "dude". I think my dog is older than you, so I'll try to let your vascillation slide till you work it out.
Hahahahaha :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 8:58 PM
Post #22 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I like that everyone else noted the "Sierra" misnomer. I thought if I pointed it out, I would just look silly.
OK then Silly.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 9:02 PM
Post #23 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
In reply to: NOT where I'm coming from. My argument is that trad and sport "can" exist side by side if climbers make the effort. I put in tons of bolts but like trad too. Things don't need to be "either - or". I just have no sympathy for LAZY climbers who don't want to put that extra 8-10 lbs in their pack.
Ok then where is the:
"*sigh* Why does this have to happen in the Colorado Plateau"
I was climbing out at Paradise Forks the other day and noticed this perfect clean and crackless arete that had bolt studs that had obviously been chopped. Whats up with that?"
Post?
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:11 PM
Post #24 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
A 'handful' of climbers getting to dictate the climbing style for a whole area?
At OWENS GORGE? Have you ever climbed there?
LOL.
That's pretty funny. You do know that Owens is one of the most popular climbing DESTINATIONS in the entire state, don't you?
Yes, a handful of climbers all a dictating. A handful, that is, for god herself, lol.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
mtnjohn
Nov 1, 2004, 9:15 PM
Post #25 of 68
(7460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 230
|
It's just wrong.
If you start a sentance "Ethics are are fine but..."
then you know you're on the wrong track.
Remeber, even Jeffery Dahmer rationalized his behavior.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:15 PM
Post #26 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
And besides, its SIERRA, not SIERRAS! There ain't but one.
Not that Owens Gorge is in either mind you.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:16 PM
Post #27 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:D
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:17 PM
Post #28 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: It's just wrong. If you start a sentance "Ethics are are fine but..." then you know you're on the wrong track. Remeber, even Jeffery Dahmer rationalized his behavior.
Actually we start these sentences with
"Your ethics suck so..."
A small but important distinction. Please get it right.
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #29 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:!:
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #30 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
In reply to: To Maculated: Listen little missy, you need to decide just how old you wanna be. First you call us all "kids" then you try sound like a kid yourself with "dude". I think my dog is older than you, so I'll try to let your vascillation slide till you work it out.
LOL, it's a bad habit I've picked up on both word counts. Like saying the eff word just a little too much. I'll work on it.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Nov 1, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #31 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
I have not climbed at ORG, so I will take the word of the folks who have that: 1 - The rock quality is too poor for gear and 2 - The ethic is sport.
Isn't it funny how a picture, when wrapped in a misleading context, can essentially lie? I mean, when I saw that picture (and even now, looking at it from a purely aesthetic viewpoint) it looked absolutely horrible. And the text around it reinforced that viewpoint. Thank you to those who piped up, and provided me with a more appropriate context in which to understand what I'm looking at.
It's still a disturbing image, but now I feel much better about my fellow climbers than I did when I first saw it.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 9:27 PM
Post #32 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: In this case I'm referring to the small handful of bolters who have herded their sheep to Owens Gorge to graze on bolted cracks and other such tripe.
Yum!
Baaaaaaa!
8^)
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:30 PM
Post #33 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
In reply to: It's just wrong. If you start a sentance "Ethics are are fine but..." then you know you're on the wrong track. Remeber, even Jeffery Dahmer rationalized his behavior.
John, I'll let you in on a little secret: I truly believe that climbers who spray about ethics are just searching for another way to look down their noses at others.
Is it ETHICAL to get friends to haul your stuff up to El Cap for an ascent?
Is it ETHICAL to clean moss off a route?
Is it ETHICAL to make a bolt anchor?
Is it ETHICAL to wear spandex?
The people that care most about bolts are those who choose to. Your average joe will not be upset at seeing bolts in a rock, and God knows sport climbers won't.
I am as old-school traditional a climber as it gets for someone so new to the arena, but I'm also fairly strong on the discernment aspect of it, and if people start freaking about bolted cracks in Owens River Gorge, they are just looking for a fight.
Heck, I've seen some very nice face lines in Yosemite that ask for a bolting anywhere else, but you don't see me out there with a Hilti. Doesn't mean that I don't think some of you touting "ethics" are any better than those "rationalizing" a bolted crack.
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 9:31 PM
Post #34 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
In reply to: In this case I'm referring to the small handful of bolters who have herded their sheep to Owens Gorge to graze on bolted cracks and other such tripe.
Ahh and finally out comes the Houlier than Thou statement. Thanks for showing your true side. Insulting the masses is fun and good but it says a lot about you.
They couldn't possibly be "informed" climbers, but rather "sheep" being steered wrong by those wicked bolters. I think the sheep truly are the people brainwashed into accepting a universal ethic and then come bleeting about it pandering for sympathy on a website to tell you the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
kafish
Nov 1, 2004, 9:32 PM
Post #35 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 64
|
Yea I basically climb nothing but sport, more out of convenience than anything (cant afford a rack yet). Anyways, even being a sport climber this bothers me, I mean come on arent routes like this the reason trad exists. I thought sport was for faces that couldn't be climbed trad. I dunno, it just seems a shame to bolt a crack. Reminds of this climb at summersville like, a beautiful dihedral crack, really exposed and clean, yet bolted. Why?
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #36 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:roll:
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:38 PM
Post #37 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Ka, so you can climb it when the lake is low? Just a thought.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:42 PM
Post #38 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I mean, when I saw that picture (and even now, looking at it from a purely aesthetic viewpoint) it looked absolutely horrible.
OK, I had to look it up to remind myself aesthetics has to do with a sense of beauty.
Horrible? Why?
When I saw that picture I saw a brown rock with a dark crack with a very few shiney blobs of aluminum next to it. Oh, and a climber.
Now in terms of climbing beauty, to me, an admitted cretin, I see no difference between draws clipped to a bolt or runners clipped to a cam. I suppose it depends upon how deeply seated the cam is as to whether it has a greater or lesser impact on beauty.
But I'm guessing this isn't it at all.
In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab?
Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty.
Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this.
Cheers
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #39 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:wink:
|
|
|
|
|
ikellen
Nov 1, 2004, 9:49 PM
Post #40 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 393
|
I'll put my own thoughts in here since it looks like I stirred up quite a thread here. First, yes, it really isnt in the "Sierra", but its in the region, that's my reasoning for the title. Take it as you wish. On the topic of the picture: The thing that mostly astounded me was not simply the fact that the crack is bolted, but if you look at it, bolts were drilled within INCHES of the crack. It looks like the bolts are placed right next to where pieces could be placed. Yeah, Owens is a sport area, but I dont know how much worse you can get in terms of bolting cracks.
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
Nov 1, 2004, 10:40 PM
Post #41 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
i've climbed a ton in the gorge and have bolted my share of the routes there. that said, i've always been against the bolting of the gorge cracks.
it's one thing (IMHO) to bolt completely a route that has one or two potential gear placements. it's another thing entirely to bolt completely a route that follows a protectable crack system for the majority of its length.
i've led most of the better quality gear routes in the gorge and while it's true that getting good gear can be a little tricky, i have to call BS at the generalization that it's dangerous or that the rock cannot allow for solid placements. the cracks in the gorge are not immaculate splitters that swallow cams, but good, solid and safe placements are not hard to obtain at all.
the final consideration regarding bolted cracks in the gorge would be the quanitity of the cracks. if, out of the several hundred routes there, there were only a couple of good crack lines i would understand and tend to agree more with the "convenience of not bringing a rack down" argument. in fact this could not be further from the truth. i'd have to get out my guide to do a proper analysis, but i would venture to guess that if you took all of the quality (2-5 star) cracks (bolted or not) and compiled a list - you'd find that it would be more than worthwhile to bring along the rack for those that wanted to climb cracks there.
for those that know me, they know i started off as a trad climber. perhaps that's where some of my aversion comes from, but i am through and through a sport climber these days and the bolted cracks in the gorge are just wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 10:59 PM
Post #42 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
There are bolts next to cracks all over Yosemite. I don't hear anyone crying about those. Especially when they conveniently rap from them. Nope, no traddies complaining about those bolts next to those cracks. So sir, not us.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Nov 1, 2004, 11:24 PM
Post #43 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab? Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty.
Nonsense. A good clean crack is a thing of beauty. Even a cretin prefers his lover's backside to be free of acne, no? But if you truly are as aesthetically challenged as you claim to be, here's my read:
Think of a single bolt on a long steep slab as the aesthetic equivalent of a belly-button on a taught abdomen. Now, think of a bunch of bolts next to a beautiful clean arching crack as an otherwise perfectly curved posterior, covered with boils.
In reply to: Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this. Cheers DMT
I'm afraid the TOS of this site keep me from linking to a suitable image to help you see the light, my friend.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
mungeclimber
Nov 1, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #44 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 2, 2002
Posts: 648
|
In reply to: In reply to: In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab? Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty. Nonsense. A good clean crack is a thing of beauty. Even a cretin prefers his lover's backside to be free of acne, no? But if you truly are as aesthetically challenged as you claim to be, here's my read: Think of a single bolt on a long steep slab as the aesthetic equivalent of a belly-button on a taught abdomen. Now, think of a bunch of bolts next to a beautiful clean arching crack as an otherwise perfectly curved posterior, covered with boils. In reply to: Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this. Cheers DMT I'm afraid the TOS of this site keep me from linking to a suitable image to help you see the light, my friend. GO
Wait a second!!! Don't try and confuse me with sex talk. I know pornography when I see it.* And bolting cracks is dirty talk. Though admittedly I'm a little aroused. :lol:
* reference to infamous court case involving pornography and the judge that needed to see it to know that it was in fact pornography in violation of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
socalbolter
Nov 2, 2004, 12:04 AM
Post #45 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 796
|
for those that would say that gorge cracks are unprotectable, check out this other photo from the site where the initial picture on this thread came from:
http://www.ericandlucie.com/Bishop/IMG_1810W.jpg
looks like bomber cam placements to me.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 2, 2004, 12:10 AM
Post #46 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
See, what hurts me here is the wonderful jamming this chick is missing out on.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
Post #47 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Boils and belly buttons, eh? I must say the visualization is quite effective. Not bad my friend, not bad.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
kafish
Nov 2, 2004, 12:21 AM
Post #48 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 29, 2004
Posts: 64
|
In reply to: Ka, so you can climb it when the lake is low? Just a thought.
actually it was one of the climbs that doesn't get flooded in the summer. can be climbed year round and perfectly protectable.
|
|
|
|
|
slavetogravity
Nov 2, 2004, 12:44 AM
Post #49 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 1114
|
I believe the issue at hand is not about one group claiming superiority over another. It’s about choice, and the preservation of choice.
Lets say I chose to climb route for its mental difficulty and I chose to climb it in committing style. If the route has bolts all over it, the route loses it’s commitment and I am deprived of my choice. For those of you who would argue to simply “not clip the bolts”, miss the point of what commitment is.
In climbing commitment is the abandonment of choice.
I chose to climb in a wilderness area, abandoning the choice of rescue.
I chose to place my own natural anchors, abandoning the choice of not having to leave my own gear if I have to bail.
I chose to free solo, abandoning the choice of survival if I fail.
If, as a climbing community, we chose to place bolts next to cracks and are apathetic enough to let it slide when others do it. We deprive our selves of a style of climbing and our sports becomes a hollower, empty shadow of its former self.
The journey is not about the destination. The journey is how you chose to reach that destination.
|
|
|
|
|
pt
Nov 2, 2004, 12:48 AM
Post #50 of 68
(6404 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2003
Posts: 400
|
In reply to: There are bolts next to cracks all over Yosemite. I don't hear anyone crying about those. Especially when they conveniently rap from them. Nope, no traddies complaining about those bolts next to those cracks. So sir, not us. DMT
I don't see how a fixed anchor applies to this situation. Are all trad climbers supposed to leave gear behind to rap? Totally different situation.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Nov 2, 2004, 1:12 AM
Post #51 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Pt, or is it?
Some hardcored "ethics" climbers would argue that if you can't find a way down without bolting, there shouldn't be a line.
|
|
|
|
|
kalcario
Nov 2, 2004, 4:34 AM
Post #54 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 1601
|
Peter Croft wrote in a 1999 Rock and Ice Road Trip issue about the ORG:
"A climber who had ventured onto the Roof [the Eldorado Roof, locale of most of the Gorge's harder bolted cracks] assured us that the bolts were unnecessary. This, in spite of the unsually bubbly patina that lines the cracks and pops under cam pressure."
Also, "Many of the routes wrestle massive, semi-detached flakes that hold body weight just fine. But should some brainless hero think to pop cams behind one of the flakes and then fall, I'm certain it'd swoop down like a 10 ton manta ray and bury him."
Usually there is no patina inside the cracks, it's just dirt which would not hold pro - this is the main reason the cracks are bolted in the Gorge.
Ethics are the way they are today because 20 years ago the best climbers, Croft among them, decided that the "rules" don't apply the same to all areas. It's funny to watch people who weren't around then trying to revive the debate today, as if the debate had never taken place.
|
|
|
|
|
holdstrong
Nov 2, 2004, 5:17 AM
Post #55 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 33
|
The funny thing is... not only are those bolts placed right next to perfectly protectable features (bad enough)..... they seem to be placed every 5 feet.
Why not just bolt a ladder up there? I think most people agree a line has to be drawn somewhere... if those pictures are not an example of a line being crossed... I dont know what is.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Nov 2, 2004, 5:45 AM
Post #56 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
One in a hundred climbers that go into the gorge brings a rack. (that is being generous) The majority of them are 5.9 wannabe crack climbers. The gorge is the last place those kind of climbers should be going.
The last serious crack climbers to regularly visit the gorge did so in a sense of adventure in the late 70's and early 80's. (?)
During the first 5 to 8 years of sport climbing in the gorge, there were a number of mixed routes. (who would go to the gorge to climb cracks with the valley right there?) Over the years many(all?) of these placements were replaced with bolts. (several after accidents)
Now they are doing the cracks. Can't say that I am surprised. A bolted crack in the gorge probably sees more ascents in a season than it otherwise would have in ten years.
Just about anywhere else I would be adamantly against bolting established trad lines.
ps. If you do not like this route, don't go to shelf road, potrero chico, maple, AF, queen creek, etc... Let alone around boulder/denver or any limestone crag.
|
|
|
|
|
boltdude
Nov 2, 2004, 7:00 AM
Post #57 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2002
Posts: 685
|
Wow! Lots of spray, lots of it inaccurate. alpnclmbr1, I have a ton of respect for you, but in this case you're guilty as charged.
Tons of cracks at Owens have perfectly good pro. Many have not so good pro and require some trickery. A few have nasty "grotty" or bubbly patina inside the crack which crumbles and makes for very poor placements.
Existing trad lines, and there are plenty, range from 5.7 to 5.12d. More people than you'd guess climb in the Gorge with trad gear. A number of the old-school face climbs still require trad gear. Except for a couple routes from 1984 and 1986, all the trad routes went up at the same time as the sport routes ('89 on), and trad routes still go up in the Gorge.
No one's been going around and retrobolting old crack lines. New crack routes get put up with natural pro, and some first ascent folks bolt SOME of them. Some of the bolts are because the pro is poor. Some are simply for convenience, and placed in the spirit of making the route available for more people to climb. The latter bolts are controversial. The picture that started the thread is of a climb that I've never been on, but based on my experience at Owens (at least 50 trad routes 5.7 to 5.11a including half a dozen trad FAs to 10c), that crack could well have poor pro and/or pro that would dislodge blocks if you fell. I don't know, I haven't climbed it. Those of you who think you "know" the crack has good pro haven't climbed lots of trad at Owens.
Presumably, everyone here is arguing over convenience bolts, and yet not one person seems to know if the bolts in contention are convenience bolts or because the pro is poor or behind loose blocks.
Pretty much all the local route developers are also Valley & Tuolumne & High Sierra climbers. Pretty much everyone also has mixed feelings about bolting cracks at Owens - including the folks that actually bolt the cracks. Those that bolt the cracks get plenty of criticism within the local community. I wouldn't worry about the "trend" spreading to other areas.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 2, 2004, 3:59 PM
Post #58 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: In reply to: There are bolts next to cracks all over Yosemite. I don't hear anyone crying about those. Especially when they conveniently rap from them. Nope, no traddies complaining about those bolts next to those cracks. So sir, not us. DMT I don't see how a fixed anchor applies to this situation. Are all trad climbers supposed to leave gear behind to rap? Totally different situation.
That's the attitude I am talking about. You are more than willing to pass judgement on the convenience anchors of others, but refuse to even acknowledge that the same judgements can be passed ON ANY BOLT EVER PLACED AS A CLIMinb ANCHOR, REGARDLESS OF PURPOSE.
All bolts are convenience anchors. The safety argument is a straw something or other.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 2, 2004, 4:03 PM
Post #59 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Presumably, everyone here is arguing over convenience bolts, and yet not one person seems to know if the bolts in contention are convenience bolts or because the pro is poor or behind loose blocks.
I'm not arguing your point, but all bolts are convenience anchors.
Every last one of them.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
crimpandgo
Nov 2, 2004, 4:27 PM
Post #60 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005
|
In reply to: I believe the issue at hand is not about one group claiming superiority over another. It’s about choice, and the preservation of choice. Lets say I chose to climb route for its mental difficulty and I chose to climb it in committing style. If the route has bolts all over it, the route loses it’s commitment and I am deprived of my choice. For those of you who would argue to simply “not clip the bolts”, miss the point of what commitment is. In climbing commitment is the abandonment of choice. I chose to climb in a wilderness area, abandoning the choice of rescue. I chose to place my own natural anchors, abandoning the choice of not having to leave my own gear if I have to bail. I chose to free solo, abandoning the choice of survival if I fail. If, as a climbing community, we chose to place bolts next to cracks and are apathetic enough to let it slide when others do it. We deprive our selves of a style of climbing and our sports becomes a hollower, empty shadow of its former self. The journey is not about the destination. The journey is how you chose to reach that destination.
I am not sure I understand this arguement. If you plan on climbing the crack in true, committed style, you are not planning on using the bolts. So, then, why does the bolts make the climb less committing. If you are 30 feet off the deck and you refuse to clip a bolt, sounds just as committing to me. guess I dont understand. I dont understand why you dont simply pick another crack.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Nov 2, 2004, 6:00 PM
Post #61 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Hey Greg. I have lots of respect for you as well and appreciate the good work you do with the asca.
In reply to: Except for a couple routes from 1984 and 1986, all the trad routes went up at the same time as the sport routes ('89 on), and trad routes still go up in the Gorge.
I started climbing in the gorge before the first guidebook came out. The word then was that odd people had been visiting the gorge for a long time. It has been a long time, but I seem to recall seeing old tatty slings and weird old aid bolts??
I don't care as much about gear routes in the gorge because I don't like them personally, so that is not a fight I would choose to fight.
As far as the controversial bolts, chop em as far as I am concerned. My biggest complaint about them is the fact that the trend is spreading. On the eastside and elsewhere.
ps. What is the story with the dead end anchor on blown away?
|
|
|
|
|
dynobelay
Nov 2, 2004, 7:15 PM
Post #62 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 73
|
I have also climbed at the Gorge since its 1st guidebook. And I've climbed a lot of the crack trad routes there. All of the ones I did were easily protectable and the rock quality was not questionable at all. There is no excuse for bolting most crack/trad routes at the Gorge.
I believe this is happening because sport climbers want to "decree" the Gorge as a total sport cliff. And so they don't have to be "bothered" bringing anything but quick draws. This is a trend that is spreading. Lately the New River Gorge has retrobolted some old mixed routes to make them pure clip and go (because they weren't "popular" as mixed gear and bolt routes).
Why do we now have a rush to turn all climbing into McDonalds style of clip and go's? Viva la differance!!! If it takes gear, use gear. If its a blank wall use a bolt.
|
|
|
|
|
pt
Nov 3, 2004, 3:04 PM
Post #63 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2003
Posts: 400
|
BooHoo! I feel so bad for the climbers who have to carry all those cams around just to climb a crack. Maybe someone can wipe their arses for them too so they don't have to reach all the way back there and deal with it themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
leinosaur
Nov 3, 2004, 5:27 PM
Post #64 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 690
|
In reply to: BooHoo! I feel so bad for the climbers who have to carry all those cams around just to climb a crack. Maybe someone can wipe their arses for them too so they don't have to reach all the way back there and deal with it themselves.
Is it me, or is this completely counterintuitive?
Wouldn't the cammers be the ones NOT having their asses wiped for them? Or was the metaphor completely superficial (just calling them babies?)
Or is pt an exclusive soloist?
hmmmmmmm....
leinosaur
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Nov 3, 2004, 5:34 PM
Post #65 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I believe this is happening because sport climbers want to "decree" the Gorge as a total sport cliff. And so they don't have to be "bothered" bringing anything but quick draws. (snip) Why do we now have a rush to turn all climbing into McDonalds style of clip and go's? Viva la differance!!! If it takes gear, use gear. If its a blank wall use a bolt.
There is no rush to turn *all* climbing areas into McDonalds style clip and go's. The sky IS NOT falling either.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
pt
Nov 3, 2004, 7:09 PM
Post #66 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2003
Posts: 400
|
[quote="leinosaur
Wouldn't the cammers be the ones NOT having their asses wiped for them? Or was the metaphor completely superficial (just calling them babies?)
Or is pt an exclusive soloist?
hmmmmmmm....
leinosaur
No; the people who want bolts next to the crack so they don't need to carry cams around are the ones who may need help with, ahem, other activities.
I'm way too much of a chicken to solo anything. Heck, I'm too chicken to sport climb because I can't plug a cam anywhere I want! To be honest, I think sport climbing can be just as scary or more scary than trad climbing(depending on the route of course). My only argument with bolts is that they should be used when you can't place other gear, otherwise, I'm all for them.
|
|
|
|
|
leinosaur
Nov 3, 2004, 11:16 PM
Post #67 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 690
|
In reply to: [quote="leinosaur Wouldn't the cammers be the ones NOT having their asses wiped for them? Or was the metaphor completely superficial (just calling them babies?) Or is pt an exclusive soloist? hmmmmmmm.... leinosaur
No; the people who want bolts next to the crack so they don't need to carry cams around are the ones who may need help with, ahem, other activities.
I'm way too much of a chicken to solo anything. Heck, I'm too chicken to sport climb because I can't plug a cam anywhere I want! To be honest, I think sport climbing can be just as scary or more scary than trad climbing(depending on the route of course). My only argument with bolts is that they should be used when you can't place other gear, otherwise, I'm all for them.
OK, I didn't get that at all. Hear, hear, for placing gear!
leinosaur
|
|
|
|
|
drkayak
Nov 4, 2004, 5:53 PM
Post #68 of 68
(6483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 136
|
In reply to: Wow! Lots of spray, lots of it inaccurate..... that crack could well have poor pro and/or pro that would dislodge blocks if you fell. I don't know, I haven't climbed it. Those of you who think you "know" the crack has good pro haven't climbed lots of trad at Owens. Presumably, everyone here is arguing over convenience bolts, and yet not one person seems to know if the bolts in contention are convenience bolts or because the pro is poor or behind loose blocks.
Five pages of posts and not a single person has done this climb? The picture is of the second pitch of “Slip ‘N Slide” a 3 star 5.9 at Lower Elbow Room area. I have lead it twice. The crack is very shallow and flaring. Sure, a experienced climber with the right rack could get in a few good pieces or just solo it for that matter.
From my experience on this climb I think the bolts are necessary for a typical 5.9 leader at a “sport crag”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
