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dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:15 PM
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And besides, its SIERRA, not SIERRAS! There ain't but one.
Not that Owens Gorge is in either mind you.
DMT
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asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:16 PM
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:D
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dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: It's just wrong. If you start a sentance "Ethics are are fine but..." then you know you're on the wrong track. Remeber, even Jeffery Dahmer rationalized his behavior.
Actually we start these sentences with
"Your ethics suck so..."
A small but important distinction. Please get it right.
Cheers
DMT
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asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:23 PM
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:!:
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maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: To Maculated: Listen little missy, you need to decide just how old you wanna be. First you call us all "kids" then you try sound like a kid yourself with "dude". I think my dog is older than you, so I'll try to let your vascillation slide till you work it out.
LOL, it's a bad habit I've picked up on both word counts. Like saying the eff word just a little too much. I'll work on it.
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cracklover
Nov 1, 2004, 9:26 PM
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I have not climbed at ORG, so I will take the word of the folks who have that: 1 - The rock quality is too poor for gear and 2 - The ethic is sport.
Isn't it funny how a picture, when wrapped in a misleading context, can essentially lie? I mean, when I saw that picture (and even now, looking at it from a purely aesthetic viewpoint) it looked absolutely horrible. And the text around it reinforced that viewpoint. Thank you to those who piped up, and provided me with a more appropriate context in which to understand what I'm looking at.
It's still a disturbing image, but now I feel much better about my fellow climbers than I did when I first saw it.
GO
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caughtinside
Nov 1, 2004, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: In this case I'm referring to the small handful of bolters who have herded their sheep to Owens Gorge to graze on bolted cracks and other such tripe.
Yum!
Baaaaaaa!
8^)
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maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: It's just wrong. If you start a sentance "Ethics are are fine but..." then you know you're on the wrong track. Remeber, even Jeffery Dahmer rationalized his behavior.
John, I'll let you in on a little secret: I truly believe that climbers who spray about ethics are just searching for another way to look down their noses at others.
Is it ETHICAL to get friends to haul your stuff up to El Cap for an ascent?
Is it ETHICAL to clean moss off a route?
Is it ETHICAL to make a bolt anchor?
Is it ETHICAL to wear spandex?
The people that care most about bolts are those who choose to. Your average joe will not be upset at seeing bolts in a rock, and God knows sport climbers won't.
I am as old-school traditional a climber as it gets for someone so new to the arena, but I'm also fairly strong on the discernment aspect of it, and if people start freaking about bolted cracks in Owens River Gorge, they are just looking for a fight.
Heck, I've seen some very nice face lines in Yosemite that ask for a bolting anywhere else, but you don't see me out there with a Hilti. Doesn't mean that I don't think some of you touting "ethics" are any better than those "rationalizing" a bolted crack.
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roughster
Nov 1, 2004, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In this case I'm referring to the small handful of bolters who have herded their sheep to Owens Gorge to graze on bolted cracks and other such tripe.
Ahh and finally out comes the Houlier than Thou statement. Thanks for showing your true side. Insulting the masses is fun and good but it says a lot about you.
They couldn't possibly be "informed" climbers, but rather "sheep" being steered wrong by those wicked bolters. I think the sheep truly are the people brainwashed into accepting a universal ethic and then come bleeting about it pandering for sympathy on a website to tell you the truth.
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kafish
Nov 1, 2004, 9:32 PM
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Yea I basically climb nothing but sport, more out of convenience than anything (cant afford a rack yet). Anyways, even being a sport climber this bothers me, I mean come on arent routes like this the reason trad exists. I thought sport was for faces that couldn't be climbed trad. I dunno, it just seems a shame to bolt a crack. Reminds of this climb at summersville like, a beautiful dihedral crack, really exposed and clean, yet bolted. Why?
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asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:37 PM
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:roll:
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maculated
Nov 1, 2004, 9:38 PM
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Ka, so you can climb it when the lake is low? Just a thought.
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dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: I mean, when I saw that picture (and even now, looking at it from a purely aesthetic viewpoint) it looked absolutely horrible.
OK, I had to look it up to remind myself aesthetics has to do with a sense of beauty.
Horrible? Why?
When I saw that picture I saw a brown rock with a dark crack with a very few shiney blobs of aluminum next to it. Oh, and a climber.
Now in terms of climbing beauty, to me, an admitted cretin, I see no difference between draws clipped to a bolt or runners clipped to a cam. I suppose it depends upon how deeply seated the cam is as to whether it has a greater or lesser impact on beauty.
But I'm guessing this isn't it at all.
In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab?
Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty.
Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this.
Cheers
DMT
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asandh
Nov 1, 2004, 9:46 PM
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:wink:
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ikellen
Nov 1, 2004, 9:49 PM
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I'll put my own thoughts in here since it looks like I stirred up quite a thread here. First, yes, it really isnt in the "Sierra", but its in the region, that's my reasoning for the title. Take it as you wish. On the topic of the picture: The thing that mostly astounded me was not simply the fact that the crack is bolted, but if you look at it, bolts were drilled within INCHES of the crack. It looks like the bolts are placed right next to where pieces could be placed. Yeah, Owens is a sport area, but I dont know how much worse you can get in terms of bolting cracks.
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socalbolter
Nov 1, 2004, 10:40 PM
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i've climbed a ton in the gorge and have bolted my share of the routes there. that said, i've always been against the bolting of the gorge cracks.
it's one thing (IMHO) to bolt completely a route that has one or two potential gear placements. it's another thing entirely to bolt completely a route that follows a protectable crack system for the majority of its length.
i've led most of the better quality gear routes in the gorge and while it's true that getting good gear can be a little tricky, i have to call BS at the generalization that it's dangerous or that the rock cannot allow for solid placements. the cracks in the gorge are not immaculate splitters that swallow cams, but good, solid and safe placements are not hard to obtain at all.
the final consideration regarding bolted cracks in the gorge would be the quanitity of the cracks. if, out of the several hundred routes there, there were only a couple of good crack lines i would understand and tend to agree more with the "convenience of not bringing a rack down" argument. in fact this could not be further from the truth. i'd have to get out my guide to do a proper analysis, but i would venture to guess that if you took all of the quality (2-5 star) cracks (bolted or not) and compiled a list - you'd find that it would be more than worthwhile to bring along the rack for those that wanted to climb cracks there.
for those that know me, they know i started off as a trad climber. perhaps that's where some of my aversion comes from, but i am through and through a sport climber these days and the bolted cracks in the gorge are just wrong.
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dingus
Nov 1, 2004, 10:59 PM
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There are bolts next to cracks all over Yosemite. I don't hear anyone crying about those. Especially when they conveniently rap from them. Nope, no traddies complaining about those bolts next to those cracks. So sir, not us.
DMT
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cracklover
Nov 1, 2004, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab? Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty.
Nonsense. A good clean crack is a thing of beauty. Even a cretin prefers his lover's backside to be free of acne, no? But if you truly are as aesthetically challenged as you claim to be, here's my read:
Think of a single bolt on a long steep slab as the aesthetic equivalent of a belly-button on a taught abdomen. Now, think of a bunch of bolts next to a beautiful clean arching crack as an otherwise perfectly curved posterior, covered with boils.
In reply to: Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this. Cheers DMT
I'm afraid the TOS of this site keep me from linking to a suitable image to help you see the light, my friend.
GO
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mungeclimber
Nov 1, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In fact, I fail so completely to understand this point I circle back to zero every time. What is it about a bolt next to a crack that ruins beauty? Why is that different from the beauty associated with a bolt in the middle of a blank slab? Cracks generally aren't associated with beauty AT ALL, come to think of it, they are generally considered to be problems with beauty. Nonsense. A good clean crack is a thing of beauty. Even a cretin prefers his lover's backside to be free of acne, no? But if you truly are as aesthetically challenged as you claim to be, here's my read: Think of a single bolt on a long steep slab as the aesthetic equivalent of a belly-button on a taught abdomen. Now, think of a bunch of bolts next to a beautiful clean arching crack as an otherwise perfectly curved posterior, covered with boils. In reply to: Really, I guess I just don't understand the religious component to all this. Cheers DMT I'm afraid the TOS of this site keep me from linking to a suitable image to help you see the light, my friend. GO
Wait a second!!! Don't try and confuse me with sex talk. I know pornography when I see it.* And bolting cracks is dirty talk. Though admittedly I'm a little aroused. :lol:
* reference to infamous court case involving pornography and the judge that needed to see it to know that it was in fact pornography in violation of the law.
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socalbolter
Nov 2, 2004, 12:04 AM
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for those that would say that gorge cracks are unprotectable, check out this other photo from the site where the initial picture on this thread came from:
http://www.ericandlucie.com/Bishop/IMG_1810W.jpg
looks like bomber cam placements to me.
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maculated
Nov 2, 2004, 12:10 AM
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See, what hurts me here is the wonderful jamming this chick is missing out on.
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dingus
Nov 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
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Boils and belly buttons, eh? I must say the visualization is quite effective. Not bad my friend, not bad.
DMT
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kafish
Nov 2, 2004, 12:21 AM
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In reply to: Ka, so you can climb it when the lake is low? Just a thought.
actually it was one of the climbs that doesn't get flooded in the summer. can be climbed year round and perfectly protectable.
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slavetogravity
Nov 2, 2004, 12:44 AM
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I believe the issue at hand is not about one group claiming superiority over another. It’s about choice, and the preservation of choice.
Lets say I chose to climb route for its mental difficulty and I chose to climb it in committing style. If the route has bolts all over it, the route loses it’s commitment and I am deprived of my choice. For those of you who would argue to simply “not clip the bolts”, miss the point of what commitment is.
In climbing commitment is the abandonment of choice.
I chose to climb in a wilderness area, abandoning the choice of rescue.
I chose to place my own natural anchors, abandoning the choice of not having to leave my own gear if I have to bail.
I chose to free solo, abandoning the choice of survival if I fail.
If, as a climbing community, we chose to place bolts next to cracks and are apathetic enough to let it slide when others do it. We deprive our selves of a style of climbing and our sports becomes a hollower, empty shadow of its former self.
The journey is not about the destination. The journey is how you chose to reach that destination.
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pt
Nov 2, 2004, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: There are bolts next to cracks all over Yosemite. I don't hear anyone crying about those. Especially when they conveniently rap from them. Nope, no traddies complaining about those bolts next to those cracks. So sir, not us. DMT
I don't see how a fixed anchor applies to this situation. Are all trad climbers supposed to leave gear behind to rap? Totally different situation.
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