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sharpie
Dec 14, 2004, 2:09 AM
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If you live in the greater Boulder area take the time tomorrow to call or email the Boulder City Council members (go here for their names and contact info: http://www.ci.boulder.co.us/...council/leaders.html) and voice your opinion about access to Boulder area climbing areas before tomorrow evening's "Study Session". Better yet attend the session: Boulder City Council Study Session December 14th 6:00 pm - 8:30 pm Council Chambers Municipal Building @ Broadway and Canyon Many areas are in serious danger of permanent closure including Mickey Mouse Wall, Continental Crag, Upper Peanuts Wall and The Sacred Cliffs. As with many locally decided issues only local residents have a voice. YOU ARE THE VOICE FOR ALL CLIMBERS AT THIS CRITICAL TIME, MAKE OUR VOICE COUNT! Pass this on to your climbing friends, encourage other Boulder areas residents to do their part. Go here to learn more: http://www.keep-open-space-open.org
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sharpie
Dec 14, 2004, 1:57 PM
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If you read this and don't live in Boulder you can at least provide a bump in support so that we can keep this on the front page today.
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rmiller
Dec 14, 2004, 2:03 PM
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Is their agenda to close these areas? What are the issues for these areas?
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climbia
Dec 14, 2004, 2:07 PM
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bump, good luck with this.
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michelleh
Dec 14, 2004, 2:36 PM
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Bump. Hope this helps keep it upfront
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roambb1
Dec 14, 2004, 2:43 PM
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Bump: Best of Luck
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mahlon
Dec 14, 2004, 2:43 PM
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Good work Sharpie, I offer you in compensation a pat on the back.......................................And a shameless bump. Bumpity bump bump! Lets keep these areas open for all our Coloradians!
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scubanclimb
Dec 14, 2004, 2:44 PM
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Bump. Let us know how it goes! Best of luck.
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dpurf
Dec 14, 2004, 2:55 PM
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bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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cologman
Dec 14, 2004, 3:56 PM
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It seems the good people of the "Republic of Boulder" have a hard time keeping track of what it is that drives their Eutopian State. Bump
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maww
Dec 14, 2004, 4:17 PM
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Thank you so much Sharpie. I will pass this along to my fellow climbers & friends in the area..along with an email to the board members.
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areuinclimber
Dec 14, 2004, 5:07 PM
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bump! get er done!
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nextascent
Dec 14, 2004, 5:15 PM
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Don't live there but climb there often enough.... Thx for posting!
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bdawg
Dec 14, 2004, 5:36 PM
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bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbump
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md3
Dec 14, 2004, 5:48 PM
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Locals taking action is key, but more effective representation and action on these issues by the Access Fund would have been helpful. The people involved with the Fund need to accept their weaknesses in PR with anyone outside the climbing community and let more competent people take over.
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robdotcalm
Dec 14, 2004, 5:51 PM
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Message sent to city council
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chanceboarder
Dec 14, 2004, 6:34 PM
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bump! good luck you guys!
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crankcase
Dec 14, 2004, 6:41 PM
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bumpits
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blainemwalker
Dec 14, 2004, 6:57 PM
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(((((BUMP)))))
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gamehendge
Dec 14, 2004, 7:26 PM
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bump. Good Luck.
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flanner
Dec 14, 2004, 7:34 PM
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Though not a local, I'm an avid Boulder-area climber and would hate to see some of these areas in jeopardy. Props to the thread, Bump Bump
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cavitycrew
Dec 14, 2004, 8:21 PM
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.:bump:.
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takeme
Dec 14, 2004, 8:21 PM
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For those who've climbed in Eldo but not on Mickey Mouse, know that it would be a huge loss. It's almost as big and as stacked as the Redgarden Wall. There are many incredible multi-pitch trad and mixed lines, plus some of the best hard sport climbing in the Front Range (so I'm told) on the Industrial Wall which is part of Mickey Mouse. The City Council discusses this tonight...do they also vote tonight, or does that take place at a later date? And...bump.
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jeffstephan
Dec 14, 2004, 8:40 PM
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Good luck! bump.
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tomclimbs
Dec 14, 2004, 8:52 PM
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Hi all, I sent an email to our councilmen and got this response. Sounds resonable to me but I am not all that informed. ---> As a rock climber myself, I share these concerns. However, I do not believe that the proposal would close access to either Mickey Mouse Wall or the Sacred Cliffs. Here is the answer i got from open staff staff on the impacts of the proposed VMP on climbing access: Question: How would climbers access areas that have had historic climbing access, if off trail use is forbidden in HCAs? Answer: * Climbing requires a trail to the climbing base area, but it is essentially off-trail in nature. * OSMP intends to preserve virtually all existing rock climbing opportunities. Most climbing areas, by design, were included in the Natural Area designation where off-trail travel is allowed. * The major climbing destinations in HCAs are The Sacred Cliffs and the Mickey Mouse Wall. For the Sacred Cliffs, access will be preserved by designating a climbing access trail and climbing use area. * For the Mickey Mouse Wall, access will be preserved by continuing the informal access options but seeking a more long-term solution by working with the private landowner and the climbing community to provide a sustainable designated trail.
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wetyeti
Dec 14, 2004, 8:55 PM
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don´t you bouldarians have enough rock already??? that last post looks promising, i think. bump up the jam
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balbus
Dec 14, 2004, 9:02 PM
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bump, good luck
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jcinco
Dec 14, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: I sent an email to our councilmen and got this response. Sounds resonable to me but I am not all that informed. The problem is that provisions guaranteeing access to these areas are not explicitly stated in the plan. If OSMP really intends on preserving access to climbers, then why not write that into the plan? In its current form, the most obvious interpretation of the VMP is that climbing in these areas would be prohibited. Its all fine and good to promise access in the future, but they could just as easily renig on this promise. In any case, bouldering would clearly be prohibited since the great bouldering near the Sacred Cliffs is scattered about the hillside. For those who asked previously, the city council will not vote tonight. They are just in the process of refining the plan. I wrote the city council several weeks ago. I got short responses from several, but Shaun McGrath wrote a very detailed letter (presumably the same one he sent to everyone). I highlighted the details below:
In reply to: Thank you for your email regarding the proposed Open Space and Mountain Parks Visitor Master Plan (VMP). City Council members have received numerous emails and letters on the various issues surrounding the VMP, and there has been a very lively public debate through op-eds, letters to the editor, newspaper articles, and in public forums. Clearly there is tremendous interest in the final outcome of the VMP. In this message, I would like to state my strong support for the process that has taken place to date and my optimism for how this plan will be finalized. Notwithstanding the rhetoric and posturing that is currently going on from people on all sides of the issue, the proposed plan has been developed with extensive and thoughtful input from the Community. The Open Space Board has contributed greatly; the OSMP Department staff has contributed greatly; the Visitor Plan Advisory Committees have contributed greatly; and the Community Group Forum has contributed greatly. At issue now is not whether City Council should choose the Board's proposal over the Community Group Forum's proposal over the staff proposal, but for the City Council to draw on all of the expertise and information from all of these groups, and make informed decisions on those areas in the VMP for which there currently is not agreement, i.e. nighttime curfews, competitive events, off-trail access in the Habitat Conservation Areas (HCAs), dogs, and the so-called "precautionary principle" or "dealing with uncertainty." Council will formally begin our consideration of the Plan this Tuesday, December 14 from 6:00 - 9:00 p.m. The Study Session will take place in the Council Chambers and will be televised on Channel 8. During this Study Session, Council will have the opportunity to ask the Board, the OSMP staff, Community Group Forum representatives, and VPAC representatives questions about the Plan and the various alternatives that have been proposed. We will then give staff direction on how to further draft the Plan on these outstanding issues. A revised draft Plan will be available early next year, which will commence a public review. It will next go to the Planning Board and Open Space Board for their review and recommendations, and in the spring will come to Council for our final consideration. I remain very confident that this process will allow City Council to draw upon the tremendous wealth of expertise that we have in our community-our OSMP staff, Open Space Board of Trustees, the member groups of the Community Group Forum, the Visitor Plan Advisory Committee members, and the many concerned and well-informed community members-to make informed decisions resulting in a Visitor Master Plan that allows public access where it is appropriate while ensuring the long-term health of the lands. Again, thank you for your email. Shaun McGrath Boulder City Council
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pv_climber
Dec 14, 2004, 9:10 PM
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bump
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theturtle
Dec 14, 2004, 9:41 PM
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Good work sharpie! Stay on 'em, don't let them close our crags!
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sonus
Dec 14, 2004, 10:19 PM
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As a climber who has made the trip from Chicago to Boulder last summer, I would hate to see ANY crag in this beautiful area closed. I want to experience as much as I can of the place, and plan on making my visit an annual affair. Bumpity bump bump... What's the status?
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foeslts16
Dec 14, 2004, 10:22 PM
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bump
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cacti-tro
Deleted
Dec 14, 2004, 10:37 PM
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bump tro
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punkclimber52
Dec 14, 2004, 11:05 PM
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dump........i mean bump. bump dang it, bump...doh!
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ikefromla
Dec 14, 2004, 11:15 PM
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word.
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jon06
Dec 14, 2004, 11:40 PM
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Leave it to "The Man" to f--- things up! Bump
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mab
Dec 14, 2004, 11:43 PM
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bimp
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mab
Dec 14, 2004, 11:44 PM
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crap
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sandbag
Dec 15, 2004, 1:05 AM
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bump so i can figure out whats going on here
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juststrange
Dec 15, 2004, 1:21 AM
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I SAY BUMP
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danrauscher
Dec 15, 2004, 2:10 AM
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looks like its about to go off the front, so... BUMP
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juststrange
Dec 15, 2004, 6:14 AM
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crap it fell off but im here to save it BUMP
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joshklingbeil
Dec 15, 2004, 7:58 AM
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BUMP
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phxtradrock
Dec 15, 2004, 8:01 AM
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badabadabump keep it open
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sharpie
Dec 15, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #47 of 53
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This report was given by a climber in attendance last night: Regarding the access issue previously posted on climbingboulder.com for the Mickey Mouse, Peanuts, Continental Crag, Sacred Cliffs, and Upper Peanuts as addressed by the proposed OSMP (Open Space & Mountain Parks). Agenda addressed: Commercial Use of Lands - It seemed this topic was discussed as to definition. It seemed that area impact by group size/frequency would be more appropriate to discuss for future management plan than analyzing visitor's profit/non-profit motives for being in the open space areas. Competitive Events - conflicting ideas within the Council and staff; this idea would be discussed further. The possibility of having one event and up to four events as a pilot program was discussed. Spectator management seemed to be at issue. Night-time Curfew - Not addressed while I was there. Reallocation & Acquisition Funding - Not Addressed. Dog Management - dealt with non-leash vs leashing of dogs in various classifications of land use. The council indicated that Boulder was indeed one of the few open space areas where dogs can be off leash in certain areas. Various committees had contributed to management plan of this topic and the council seemed favorable to the plan recommendations. Trail Planning & Projects - Off-trail use in Habitat Conservation Areas - These two topics concerned the climbing community. Council members were open to comments in a favorable manner and some had already agreed to work with the Access Fund regarding the problem with the aforementioned crags. The access problem deals with the main trail heading to these crags dead ending into private property; then back to open space land to where the crags are located. Boulder will not promote a trespass into this land; but they did seem to indicate they were willing to work out the access in some way. Whether that means gaining an easement right from the landowner or development of a better managed trail system is planned to be discussed with the Access Fund and Council. So it appears that while access is in danger, the access is being worked on. The Council was very much willing to try and work with the climbing community. However - still an unclear issue was the classifications of open space lands and how these classifications would affect climbing areas. The Council was at odds regarding classifications and will work on this plan further. It seemed the issue was preservationist versus recreational visitor use. I would say that being at the Boulder Council meeting was like a night and day situation when compared to the Denver Mountain Parks' policies with regard to recognizing the contribution of climbers to the Colorado and American heritage and the importance of promoting the recreational use of the public mountain areas in Colorado. Having Council members hold up climbing books and state the importance of such was very encouraging (hopefully it won't turn out to be a dog and pony show) I hope climbers find this information useful and continue to follow up with the proposed management plan and policies of all public agencies. Yours Truly, Mark Nelson
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juststrange
Dec 15, 2004, 3:52 PM
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Back to the top with you
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peggy
Dec 15, 2004, 4:25 PM
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bump Never want to see an area closed
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sharpie
Dec 15, 2004, 5:50 PM
Post #50 of 53
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Thanks to everyone who has posted and helped keep this topic in front of our community leading up to yesterday's meeting. No doubt the debate will continue, and I will try to keep you all informed of any developments.
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maww
Dec 15, 2004, 6:02 PM
Post #51 of 53
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Thanks for the update Mark. I received two emails in the last two days from the council. Here is the 1st: Lara-- Thank you for your email regarding the proposed Open Space and Mountain Parks Visitor Master Plan (VMP). City Council members have received numerous emails and letters on the various issues surrounding the VMP, and there has been a very lively public debate through op-eds, letters to the editor, newspaper articles, and in public forums. Clearly there is tremendous interest in the final outcome of the VMP. In this message, I would like to state my strong support for the process that has taken place to date and my optimism for how this plan will be finalized. Notwithstanding the rhetoric and posturing that is currently going on from people on all sides of the issue, the proposed plan has been developed with extensive and thoughtful input from the Community. The Open Space Board has contributed greatly; the OSMP Department staff has contributed greatly; the Visitor Plan Advisory Committees have contributed greatly; and the Community Group Forum has contributed greatly. At issue now is not whether City Council should choose the Board's proposal over the Community Group Forum's proposal over the staff proposal, but for the City Council to draw on all of the expertise and information from all of these groups, and make informed decisions on those areas in the VMP for which there currently is not agreement, i.e. nighttime curfews, competitive events, off-trail access in the Habitat Conservation Areas (HCAs), dogs, and the so-called "precautionary principle" or "dealing with uncertainty." Council will formally begin our consideration of the Plan this Tuesday, December 14 from 6:00 - 9:00 p.m. The Study Session will take place in the Council Chambers and will be televised on Channel 8. During this Study Session, Council will have the opportunity to ask the Board, the OSMP staff, Community Group Forum representatives, and VPAC representatives questions about the Plan and the various alternatives that have been proposed. We will then give staff direction on how to further draft the Plan on these outstanding issues. A revised draft Plan will be available early next year, which will commence a public review. It will next go to the Planning Board and Open Space Board for their review and recommendations, and in the spring will come to Council for our final consideration. I remain very confident that this process will allow City Council to draw upon the tremendous wealth of expertise that we have in our community-our OSMP staff, Open Space Board of Trustees, the member groups of the Community Group Forum, the Visitor Plan Advisory Committee members, and the many concerned and well-informed community members-to make informed decisions resulting in a Visitor Master Plan that allows public access where it is appropriate while ensuring the long-term health of the lands. Again, thank you for your email. Shaun McGrath Boulder City Council The 2nd letter was a brief note of thanks; the author also said I may receive future updates from the council regarding this matter. I do hope they consider our input in future decisions. Again, thanks for this info and the updates. Cheers,
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hippie_dreams
Dec 15, 2004, 6:29 PM
Post #52 of 53
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mmmmmBUMP!
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takeme
Dec 15, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #53 of 53
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In reply to: This report was given by a climber in attendance last night: Trail Planning & Projects - Off-trail use in Habitat Conservation Areas - These two topics concerned the climbing community. Council members were open to comments in a favorable manner and some had already agreed to work with the Access Fund regarding the problem with the aforementioned crags. The access problem deals with the main trail heading to these crags dead ending into private property; then back to open space land to where the crags are located. Boulder will not promote a trespass into this land; but they did seem to indicate they were willing to work out the access in some way. Whether that means gaining an easement right from the landowner or development of a better managed trail system is planned to be discussed with the Access Fund and Council. So it appears that while access is in danger, the access is being worked on. The Council was very much willing to try and work with the climbing community. However - still an unclear issue was the classifications of open space lands and how these classifications would affect climbing areas. The Council was at odds regarding classifications and will work on this plan further. It seemed the issue was preservationist versus recreational visitor use. I was at the meeting last night. The private property concern mentioned above deals only with the Mickey Mouse Wall; however, there is also the issue that Mickey Mouse was originally included in one of the Habitat Conservation Areas proposed in Visitor Master Plan. This was perhaps the greatest source of concern for climbers, as the HCAs were meant to be closed to all off-trail access (meaning that social trails, such as the one providing access to Mickey Mouse Wall, would be closed). My impression from the meeting was that the Council members have taken public comment to heart and intend to see to it that significant climbing areas, particularly Mickey Mouse Wall, will continue to be accessible by whatever means necessary under the finalized VMP. Several council members, notably Will Toor and Crystal Gray, spoke very strongly in our favor, and noone spoke in opposition although the Open Space Mountain Parks manager's response (he was the one who presented the proposed VMP) was more beaureacratically worded than I would have liked. Also, I'm not sure if I heard correctly, but I thought someone mentioned at one point that part of the HCA meant to include Mickey Mouse Wall has already been recently redrawn in the proposal so that the wall will specifically not be included. Danger still lurks in arbitrary decisions that the OSMP board may be able to make in the future. It was clear at various points throughout the meeting, especially in the final half hour, that a number of folks with what seem to be anti-recreational views remain. It isn't clear what kind of factual basis or deliberation will be required in the future for any drastic actions that OSMP may try to take (e.g., in 5 years suddenly deciding that Mickey Mouse Wall is in grave ecological danger, and summarily closing it without any real evidence or debate). Still, my ultimate impression is that the immanent threat to access is not as bad as I had feared. But we climbers need to stay on top of this issue, that's for sure! Charles
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