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euthanasia
Feb 13, 2005, 6:09 PM
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Are they rated harder than faces?
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ikefromla
Feb 13, 2005, 6:13 PM
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because for anyone to climb 5.14d on gear is going to be very difficult and committing. it will happen soon enough though.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 6:47 PM
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Recently an incredibly strong and I'm taking STRONG. Spanish team had a crack at repeating Lyn Hills free accent of the Nose on El Cap. Despite these guys ability to climb 5.14d they were unable to free the Great Roof pitch and the Changing corners pitch. Iger Pou (I think that's how you spell his name) Suggested a grade of 5.14c for the changing corners pitch and a grade of similar difficulty for the Great Roof. This was only after they didn't climb it. Had they stuck around and worked those pitches who knows what they would have gon fee at.
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camhead
Feb 13, 2005, 6:58 PM
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what Ike said is true, although not all gear climbs are cracks. In fact, the world's hardest trad climbs that I know of are face climbs (i.e. Huber's Bellevista, with a .14b crux protected by A4 gear).
However, I believe the original poster is thinking of "pure" cracks– ideally, lines that allows jamming, laybacking, and little else for an ascent. The hardest consensus "pure" crack climbs have kind of stagnated around 5.13+ for nearly a decade (Fiddler on the Roof, No Way Jose), but recently, two 5.14a roof cracks have gone up, one in the Italian Alps, and one in Quebec (can't remember the names). I think that both were led on pre-placed gear.
So, yeah, whether or not we worry about a redpoint/pinkpoint argument, the fact remains that there are no hard or even solid 5.14 cracks.
This probably has something to do with the fact that, despite the obvious difficulty of mastering hard crack skills, the techniques are less varied and simpler than those required for hard sport climbing. I have no first hand experience, of course, but I do recall reading that Steve Hong, author of numerous 5.13 crack routes, considered them easier than the sport routes he put up in Rifle.
think of it this way: once you have mastered all of the sizes of cracks, from offwidth to tips, and built up the massive endurance to camp out on each jam and place gear, it is difficult to find something REALLY hard. Despite this, there are some really strong climbers out there who are finding that crack climbing does not have to top out at 5.13+.
I guess that with this in mind, it is possible to see why crack climbing standards would evolve quite a bit more slowly than mainstream sport standards.
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josephgdawson
Feb 13, 2005, 7:13 PM
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There are not any 5.14d cracks because no one has put one up yet.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 7:15 PM
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Don’t forget Ron Kauk’s accent of Magic Line in Yosemite, that’s a “pure crack line” and was graded 5.14b. Dean Potter has also freed a 5.14 crack line in Moab a few years back. He placed all gear on lead with the exception of the very first piece that was pre placed.
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gunksgoer
Feb 13, 2005, 7:31 PM
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i think the main reason there arnt to many hard cracks, is simply, if the crack is good enough to take gear, then its good enough to keep the grade down. the exception would be uber-thin seams and very shallow cracks, but then its a matter of finger size. plus, if the crack is small enough, its not really crack climbing, more like climbing a bunch of vertical crimps. more hard cracks will appear with time, but for now there are just a handfull of 14s.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: There are not any 5.14d cracks because no one has put one up yet. |
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smearhound
Feb 13, 2005, 7:56 PM
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Slightly OT, but Dean Potter recently ascended "Sasquatch," a 20-foot, 45-degree overhanging crack problem on Yosemite's Le Conte Boulder. The problem is unrated.
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camhead
Feb 13, 2005, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Don’t forget Ron Kauk’s accent of Magic Line in Yosemite, that’s a “pure crack line” and was graded 5.14b. Dean Potter has also freed a 5.14 crack line in Moab a few years back. He placed all gear on lead with the exception of the very first piece that was pre placed.
I'm pretty sure that Magic Line was led on pre-placed gear. Potter has not put a grade of 5.14 on any of his lines, although his last two, Epitaph and Concepción, both have tentative 5.13+ ratings. These ratings are just assumptions by magazines and internet pseudo-climbers such as ourselves, however; Potter has not rated them.
Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a.
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chossmonkey
Feb 13, 2005, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: This probably has something to do with the fact that, despite the obvious difficulty of mastering hard crack skills, the techniques are less varied and simpler than those required for hard sport climbing. I have no first hand experience, of course, but I do recall reading that Steve Hong, author of numerous 5.13 crack routes, considered them easier than the sport routes he put up in Rifle. think of it this way: once you have mastered all of the sizes of cracks, from offwidth to tips, and built up the massive endurance to camp out on each jam and place gear, it is difficult to find something REALLY hard. Despite this, there are some really strong climbers out there who are finding that crack climbing does not have to top out at 5.13+.
That is pretty much the reason.
A crack can only get so small before it needs to be beat out with pins to be climbed free. There just aren't that many cracks that are overhanging, super long, and at a size that is hard to climb but not too small. There may be 5.15 pure cracks waiting to be climbed but for every unclimbed super hard crack there are hundereds if not thousands of just as hard or harder unclimbed faces. Most of the future 5.14 "trad" routes will be face climbs that follow thin seams.
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keinangst
Feb 13, 2005, 9:51 PM
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Anyone seen La Zebrée in Quebec?
It's supposedly a mid-14 pure crack (featured on MoDump.com and Climbing mag late last year), and the FA'ist plans to attempt it again this year without pre-hanging some of the gear. He had to do it that way for logistical simplicity--besides, sport climbers often do the hard stuff with pre-hung draws, so it seems pretty equivalent.
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collegekid
Feb 14, 2005, 12:02 AM
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Crack climbing isn't in the mainstream like sport climbing is, so sponsored climbers aren't as motivated to put up a crack testpiece as they are to put up a hard boulder problem or sport route. However, as has already been said, there are hard cracks out there...they're just not as well known as the hardest boulder/sport routes.
If professional climbers were actively searching San Diego for 5.14+ cracks, they would probably find one. Mt. Woodson is home to numerous 5.11 and 5.12 cracks, i'm sure there's harder stuff to be found.
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rockclimbergabor
Feb 14, 2005, 12:49 AM
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Also, people dont climb cracks for the difficulty like sport climbs, but for fun and daring reasons. I think pre-placing gear on a 5.14a crack is the same as sending a 5.14d sport climb, not just becasue it is a lot harder but because its a lot more scary.
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ikefromla
Feb 14, 2005, 12:51 AM
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In reply to: Crack climbing isn't in the mainstream like sport climbing is, so sponsored climbers aren't as motivated to put up a crack testpiece as they are to put up a hard boulder problem or sport route. |
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chriss
Feb 14, 2005, 1:56 AM
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[quote="chossmonkey]
A crack can only get so small before it needs to be beat out with pins to be climbed free.
Most of the future 5.14 "trad" routes will be face climbs that follow thin seams.
Not trying to start anything, but. I don't believe the first statement. However the second makes sense.
When a crack gets that hard (5.14+) to climb, it makes sense to use other features, ie the rock face. So, are there some .14+ pure cracks? Maybe.
chris
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thegreytradster
Feb 14, 2005, 2:32 AM
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There are plenty of unrepeated hard .12 and .13 cracks out there. That fact by itself speaks volumes.
Won't catch me on any of em' :shock:
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 3:53 PM
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I think most of you have covered all the bases. I think if a crack is big enough to get your fingers in, then it just isn't that hard. Theoretically, I can imagine cracks that would be in the 14+ range. For example, many of the hard routes out there have surprisingly short cruxes, what if those crux sections lasted the entire length of the route?
There is a crack in Zion that I'm pretty sure is 5.14, but but probably not 14+. It will be awhile before climbing standards rise to the point where someone who is good enough to climb it is desperate enough to spend the time working it. I'll describe it, and you tell me if it's 5.14:
#.75 camalot-sized splitter crack through a 150 degree (near horizontal) 10' roof. I know it's possible because it's wide enough, but it's going to be crazy hard!!
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 3:55 PM
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Furthermore, hand size does matter. There is no way that the Great Roof was 5.14+ for Lynn Hill, if so, it would have taken a lot longer to do it. In crack climbing, you can't just assume a universal rating for everyone. Until someone with big fingers repeats those pitches, they are 13+.
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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: Recently an incredibly strong and I'm taking STRONG. Spanish team had a crack at repeating Lyn Hills free accent of the Nose on El Cap. Despite these guys ability to climb 5.14d they were unable to free the Great Roof pitch and the Changing corners pitch. Iger Pou (I think that's how you spell his name) Suggested a grade of 5.14c for the changing corners pitch and a grade of similar difficulty for the Great Roof. This was only after they didn't climb it. Had they stuck around and worked those pitches who knows what they would have gon fee at.
Lynn has very small fingers, any male is at a huge disadvantage. I think she rated those pitches 13d?
There are 14d cracks, they just haven't been climbed yet.
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a.
This is so offensive to me that it makes me shudder. Guys have many strength advantages on us, generally, and tend to be taller so perhaps, Lynn Hill should get to upgrade her burlier strength-orient climbs or maybe her reachiest ascents to keep things even?
If you haven't seen the Great Roof or Scott Burke's fingers, I don't think you can dismiss her send as being all about the small fingers. Contrary to what would seem to be popular belief the Great Roof is not really an incipient KB seem. It still takes Aliens pretty much the whole way across.
Whose hardest send does not play to their strengths?
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: When a crack gets that hard (5.14+) to climb, it makes sense to use other features, ie the rock face. So, are there some .14+ pure cracks? Maybe. and if you're ascending that line via the face holds, are you crack climbing any longer?
Most cracks that I've climbed have involved using at least some face holds too.
The thinner the crack gets, IMO, the more climbing the crack itself becomes like face climbing.
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curt
Feb 14, 2005, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a. This is so offensive to me that it makes me shudder. Guys have many strength advantages on us, generally, and tend to be taller so perhaps, Lynn Hill should get to upgrade her burlier strength-orient climbs or maybe her reachiest ascents to keep things even? If you haven't seen the Great Roof or Scott Burke's fingers, I don't think you can dismiss her send as being all about the small fingers. Contrary to what would seem to be popular belief the Great Roof is not really an incipient KB seem. It still takes Aliens pretty much the whole way across. Whose hardest send does not play to their strengths?
Wasn't Scott burke able to follow that pitch free, anyway? If so, that kind-of shoots down the finger size argument. Or, am I mistaken?
Curt
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