|
|
|
|
|
|
|
crimp2bfree
Feb 19, 2005, 10:32 PM
Post #27 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 5, 2005
Posts: 114
|
It would also be nice to know how far up the snow ramp he was when he fell. It sounded like there was an attempt to self arrest. This would mean he simply isn't moving over the top of the bulge but somewhere beyond that. It would seem at least 5ft past the bulge would be needed to even think about attempting a self arrest. That would make it a least a 30ft fall, and possibly more. Without doing any calculations, a 30ft fall on a decent screw without a screamer using a single rope seems like it might be enough to blow even a good screw. I won't go into this more due to a lack of experience.
Another thing that needs to be straightened out is the sequence of the fall. Where exactly was the ledge he hit and broke his legs? If it was at the top of the 3rd pitch then some wierd things happened. Basicly how did he manage to pull his first and second screw on the pitch? Assume the pitch is 60ft, he takes a minimum 20ft fall initially. That puts him 40ft up. 4th screw blows. If it is 10ft to the 3rd screw, he will land on it when he is at 20ft up. If that blows, he hits the ledge and breaks his legs. That leaves two screws in and the leader slows down a lot in the process of breaking his legs.
So what happened that allowed enough energy input into the sytem to blow the remaining two screws? The specific placement of the srews could account for this. But looking at the likely sequance of the fall it points to the idea that the placements were something much less than ideal. Knowledge of the route and where the screws were placed on the pitch are really needed to figure this all out.
|
|
|
|
|
couchwarrior
Feb 19, 2005, 11:05 PM
Post #28 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2004
Posts: 190
|
In reply to: I am sorry to say it is the first time I am told that an experienced person is climbing on ice with a normal single rope
Huh!? I guess all those photos I've seen of Ferguson, various Lowes, Roberts, Fowler, JoJo, Chouinard, Anker, Belcourt, Twight, Callis, Blanchard, Gadd, Garvey, and Haston climbing ice on single ropes were photoshopped!
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 12:38 AM
Post #29 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Screamers are a must. Doubble ropes help tremendously when gear fails because if you have staggered your clips fom the red rope to the blue, if gear fails on red rope then the next chance to be caught is going to be on blue which should be fresh and ready to absorb energy. on a single rope the rope gets streached when the gear is loaded, if the gear fails and the rope does not have time to recover before you hit the next piece. You hit the next piece with a rope that is still streached and has way less energy absortion ability. It has been shown in tests that you should actualy give a single rope several min. un weighted to recover between attempts when working a rt and falling. with that in mind it is allmost a gaurentee that when a single rope rips gear that it will keep ripping gear untill you hit something truely bomber. My last real test of that theory pulled 3 pieces but stopped on a #12 Chiounard stopper. The fact that you are talking colorado sunshine in this case also may have been a factor. Screws melt out quickly, no screamers, single rope, go splat.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Feb 20, 2005, 2:53 AM
Post #30 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
To the OP,
The screw pull outs made me wonder about a few things:
What kind of belay device was used? Munter, GriGri, ATC, 8, ect.
What type of screws were used? High relieve threaded screws like BD, CM, or Grivel? Or were they Snargs? Or Ti screws with low profile threads? I think if a screw with low relief threads was placed at a downward angle, it'd pull right out. The screw type would be really usefull to know.
Also, how long did the pitch take to finish? Did the leader cover his screws in snow? The sun could have helped melt a screw out a lot faster.
Screamers, and half ropes...they probably would have helped, but 4 screws ripping out seems like there was something else going on. Especially 17cm screws pulling (depending on their type).
Let us know, we'll offer what advice we can.
Hope me makes a full recovery!
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #31 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Jim I have to dissagree with your statement that 4 screws ripping sounds fishy. It makes perfect sense. If the first screw failes with a single rope and no screamers the second screw gets hit with a dead rope that has verry little energy absorbtion left in it. With the absence of screamers and the dead rope, the subsequent screws are pretty much doomed. With rock gear this scenario sometimes breaks biners or causes otherwise bomber cams to break. It is not really a static rope but it sure isn't much of a dynamic at this point either.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Feb 20, 2005, 3:30 AM
Post #32 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
In reply to: Jim I have to dissagree with your statement that 4 screws ripping sounds fishy. It makes perfect sense. If the first screw failes with a single rope and no screamers the second screw gets hit with a dead rope that has verry little energy absorbtion left in it. With the absence of screamers and the dead rope, the subsequent screws are pretty much doomed. With rock gear this scenario sometimes breaks biners or causes otherwise bomber cams to break. It is not really a static rope but it sure isn't much of a dynamic at this point either.
I know what your getting at, and I understand your point. However, I don't think I've ever heard of a biner breaking in recent history that had the gate closed, where something else wasn't at work. I've also talked to Metolius about cam faliure before and they've had 1 cam break in the past 15 or 20 years, and it was the cables over an sharp edge.....
The belay should have slipped a little bit though, unless it was a Grigri, and a little bit of slip can reduce that peak force by a hell of a lot.
I'm no expert on lead fall physics, but I still think there's something we don't know about that may have made a big difference (screw types, belay type, ect).
Cheers,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #33 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
the sweedish guy had broken biner but we don't know if it's user error/edge related, I saw a snapped off tech friend in an aussi mag so it can happen but it is really rare. It being colorado though I bet it ws a combination of sunshine and single rope / no screamers. We had a simeler incident at lake Willoughby this year where a climber ripped all his screws and decked with verry serious injuries. Single rope, no screamers, sunbaked ice, splat. The biggest isue on ice climbing is remembering that the leader does NOT FALL. All the modern gear in the world can't gaurentee your safty in a leader fall on ice. One of our local hardmen Rockytop was chugging up a pillar on mindbender 5+ when a climber pitched off of nearby Plug an Chug. Rocky was heard to exclaim mid swing "somebody tell those guys that this ain't sport climbing!!!!"
|
|
|
|
|
papounet
Feb 20, 2005, 10:09 PM
Post #34 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471
|
What is the weight of the climber who fell ?
all typical fall computations are with a 80kg (174 pounds).
a 100 kg climber fall generates more energy.
I do not have my computation handy, but is is quite straightforward to compute.
And of course all my wishes for a speedy and full recovery
|
|
|
|
|
crimp2bfree
Feb 20, 2005, 10:15 PM
Post #35 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 5, 2005
Posts: 114
|
The change in weight would be essentially linearly proportional. 1/2mV^2. So 100kg climber would generate 25% more energy. If the OP is still looking for a better analysis we need more details, mainly about the route/position of pro.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 21, 2005, 12:34 AM
Post #36 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
This is ice we are talking about here Not Rock. the most important piece of info is TEMPERATURE and weather or not the screws were in direct sunlight. Even in pretty cold temps screws will start to melt out if in direct sunlight. ever look at a thermometer that is on the sunny side of the house? It may be 0 degreesF in the shade but the thermometer in the sun will soak up the heat and read +50F if it is an old style one in a metal frame and wind sheltered. Screwhangers are metal and Black as sin.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Feb 21, 2005, 1:52 AM
Post #37 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
[quote="tradmanclimbs"]the sweedish guy had broken biner but we don't know if it's user error/edge related, I saw a snapped off tech friend in an aussi mag so it can happen but it is really rare.quote]
Do you mean a snapped Forged Friend? I dunno how Tech friends could "snap"...
For the biner, was the gate intact?
Thanks,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
crackrn
Feb 21, 2005, 2:53 AM
Post #38 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 282
|
In reply to: ...Kalias, thanks for the constructive feedback MM
Nice, classy response to an absolute jackass comment.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 21, 2005, 11:42 AM
Post #39 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death I don't know if anyone here on the site ever saw a picture of the biner? I do know the accident was hashed to death with the usual limited facts and hearsay that we have here on the site. I think his name was Kohl? as for the photo of the snapped off WC tech friend it was either in Gripped or an aussi mag. It was before i got into these climbing sites so I am guessing 5 years ago? It was in a shallow placement and the cable was ripped right out of the head of the cam. It was with a warning about shallow placements.
|
|
|
|
|
gonzo
Feb 21, 2005, 1:25 PM
Post #40 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 36
|
The temperature fluctuations on the previous days could also be interesting. If you have very rapid cooling or heating you would be forming layers of ice with different consistencies. Two different layers of ice would result in a definite weakness. I know he said that when he got to the ledge the snow gave way ... that is most probabbly due to the angle but perhaps the layering was also a part of the problem.
Perhaps when he placed the screw the outside layer seemed strong but the inner layers where soft or rotten. This is all speculative but things to maybe think about.
|
|
|
|
|
f_thomas
Feb 21, 2005, 2:21 PM
Post #41 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2003
Posts: 139
|
kailas - :?: :troll: you trolling for an idiot award?
I clicked on the post to learn something. Not an ice climber nor have I even studied it to any degree. However, I've got to say that Kailas' post has to be one of the worst example of what this forum has to offer.
OP Hope your friend recovers well and thanks for bringing to light his experience. We call all learn something from it - ice climber or not!
|
|
|
|
|
papounet
Feb 22, 2005, 12:25 AM
Post #42 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471
|
In reply to: The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death
The accident you refer to would be Goran Kropp death at Frenchman coulee on Air Guitar ??
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Feb 22, 2005, 12:40 AM
Post #43 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
In reply to: In reply to: The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death The accident you refer to would be Goran Kropp death at Frenchman coulee on Air Guitar ??
That's what it sounds like. Some of what I remember hearing about that was about gear being clipped with stiff quickdraws, and that it possibly contributed to his gear pulling. I thought I heard the biner was open when it failed...am I wrong?
Thanks,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
climbnb
Feb 22, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #44 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 20
|
The whole story doesn't make sense to me. 4 screws all ripping? Even after the leader hits a big ledge and unfortunately takes most of the force in his body. Also distances just don't add up unless the belayer messed up. 4 pitches up, even with the last pitch being only 60 feet, it should be impossible to hit the deck unless the first three pitches were only 20 or 25 feet each. Assuming the 4th pitch is 60 feet, and say there was some slack in the system, max fall height should be only 60+60+stretch+any slack = 140ish feet. Taking off the 60 feet for the last pitch, leader should be max 80ish feet below the belay (which unless pitches are very short, he shouldn't even have reached the belay ledge at the bottom of the 3rd pitch). Also, why didn't the belay screws rip with what may have been a factor 2 fall on them? So obviously all the ice was not crap and the leader was able to place some good pro.
|
|
|
|
|
timsesink
Feb 23, 2005, 12:12 AM
Post #45 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 47
|
Guys
I rhink you're all missing something key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He said when he placed the screws the ice came out like a perfect tube and had no bubbles or anything!! This screams rotten ice or something simliar, ice coming out of a screw shoud be chopped up. It also doesn't help that the last screw was 10 feet down and that he was on single rope with no screamers! If solid ice comes from your screw then get the F@%# off the ice!! Anways hope your freind recovers soon. We all make mistakes and sooner or later someone gets caught.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Feb 23, 2005, 1:33 AM
Post #46 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Makers perfect sense to me. Sunny colorado ice, no screamers, single rope. rip and splat.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Feb 24, 2005, 3:33 AM
Post #47 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
In reply to: Guys I rhink you're all missing something key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He said when he placed the screws the ice came out like a perfect tube and had no bubbles or anything!! This screams rotten ice or something simliar, ice coming out of a screw shoud be chopped up. It also doesn't help that the last screw was 10 feet down and that he was on single rope with no screamers! If solid ice comes from your screw then get the F@%# off the ice!! Anways hope your freind recovers soon. We all make mistakes and sooner or later someone gets caught.
It's just about impossible to get solid ice to come out of a screw. It's simple displacement... I don't think that's what the OP was talking about.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
mack_north
Feb 24, 2005, 4:21 AM
Post #48 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 8, 2005
Posts: 74
|
In reply to: It's just about impossible to get solid ice to come out of a screw. It's simple displacement... I don't think that's what the OP was talking about. Jim
No offense amigo but didn't you post elsewhere that you've had "about one lead" of ice in your life? Maybe you should resist critiquing lead accidents. Unless you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, of course!
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Feb 24, 2005, 4:23 AM
Post #49 of 55
(6363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: Also distances just don't add up unless the belayer messed up. 4 pitches up, even with the last pitch being only 60 feet, it should be impossible to hit the deck unless the first three pitches were only 20 or 25 feet each.
I thought about this too, and wondered what I was missing.
I suppose there are several things that might be in play:
1. "The Deck" might mean different things... The OP might be using the term "Deck" to mean "a flat surface" which could include a ledge, where you and I might be using "deck" to mean "the flat gound at the very bottom of the climb, where you ended the approach hike."
2. Some climbs have numerous ledges between/among the pitches. Think of Johnny Vegas/Solar Slab in Red Rock Canyon. You climb the first three pitches (JV), and you've reached a huge ledge. Then you start your fourth pitch, which is the FIRST pitch of Solar Slab, and fall. You rip all the gear and reach the ledge. You have, technically, "decked" from falling on the 4th pitch of the day, but you haven't reached the ground.
Probably a communication breakdown between the OP and us, climbnb.
|
|
|
|
|
barkeatervt
Mar 2, 2005, 4:08 AM
Post #50 of 55
(6225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2004
Posts: 32
|
If he set up two screws for an anchor and he was clipped in to both top anchors, why did he put so much stress on the system?
There must have been a lot slack in the line, or it would have caught him within a few feet from where he fell.
I assume he was still on belay, or safely tied into the anchor! :roll:
I agree with reno, also, if the screws were placed in the armpit of the ledge on short quick draws, and the belay was in a bad spot, a zipper effect is highly possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
