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pipsqueekspire
Mar 9, 2005, 9:13 PM
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Who uses what system when climbing with three people on a long route.
(I have ommited the obvious lead-follow-follow as very slow and painful method of doing a long route.)
Twins-
Pro- CLipped to every piece less pendulums possible for followers
Pro- light weight
Con- No help with rope drag. thin ropes hard to catch followers falls unless using autoblock device
Con- some twins are not meant to belay with one rope ever- even a follower (skinny ropes cut)
Doubles-
Pro Cool with rope drag
Pro- reduce pendulums for leader
Con cliping everyother piece may set pendulum up for one follower or both
Pro- some doubles are skinny enough to be both clipped to one piece?? Is this true?
Single Rope with a trail line
Pro- easy to belay leader
Pro- perfect if route is dead verticle
Con- Zero directionals for one of the followers if the route meanders
Con- Heavy
Single rope using cows tail
Pro- lightest method very simple rope management
Pro- both followers have equal directionals always
Con- If both followers are not similar abilities your hosed
Con- Scary feeling of being pulled or actually being pulled off a climb in event of a fall
Con- have to pass belay for last 25 feet of climb to bring up the last person
Con- no help if you have to do long raps
Is it possible to use two regular single ropes as doubles as long as you never clip both into one piece?
Anyother ideas????
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ricardol
Mar 9, 2005, 9:20 PM
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to answer your question ..
yes -- you can use two single lines as doubel lines .. they would just be very fat doubles ..
.. when climbing as a team of three i like to trail the second line, and clip it into key pieces to avoid pendulims ..
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rangertau
Mar 9, 2005, 9:29 PM
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I almost always use doubles for alpine climbs.
1. Yes, you can clip both ropes into a single peice if needed to protect pendelums that may be extreme or crux's.
2. Raps usually require two ropes. If you're going to bring two ropes, at least the doubles are lighter.
3. If one double gets cut, you still have the other. Know plenty of people who climb multi-pitch/alpine with one rope (including me sometimes). Just a calculated risk.
4. A friend of mine refuses to climb on doubles in multi-pitch. Claims his ass is too big to fall on a double. I tell him the rope won't break and the stretch will make his fall gentle. He still insists dragging up a trail line that inevitably gets hung up on everything as we pull it up.
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davidji
Mar 9, 2005, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: Doubles- Pro Cool with rope drag Pro- reduce pendulums for leader Con cliping everyother piece may set pendulum up for one follower or both
If you're climbing wandering routes, best if climber #2 knows when to clean pro from #3's rope, and when to clip #3's rope into #2's pro: i.e. it's best if climber #2 knows how to lead on doubles too.
If you do this, both followers are well-protected with this system.
It gets trickier when your group includes a beginner. It's good to have the beginner climb as #2, so #3 can help if required. OTOH, if the beginner climbs second, they might not leave #3 ideally protected at traverses.
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fire_eyes
Mar 9, 2005, 10:43 PM
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Hi all! Pip posted this thread as it developed from a discussion we were having about a party of 3 climbing the east buttress of Mt. Whitney (I am going July 6 with two partners.)
Question (for me) is:
Can we climb on two thin singles as doubles? Can we clip the same pro when needed safely? If so, do you recommend separate biners on the sling? (edited to include some climber specs: me 130lbs, partners about 170lbs and 200lbs.)
What trusted and well liked belay device do you recommend for this method? Tim mentioned a B52...
Your responses are appreciated!
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dirtineye
Mar 10, 2005, 12:12 AM
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YOU folks considering alternate clipping on a wandering route and then clipping both ropes to the same piece at a crux should consider what happens when one rope rubs rapidly over the other in a fall.
Nobody I know who climbs on doubles will do what you are suggesting.
As for traversing, you clip one rope all the way across and let the other hang usually, so that you have at least one rope with less drag. You try to plan so that you do not cross the ropes in all your meandering.
The first follower (second) can then set or leave directionals on the second line as needed to protect the third. Don'tt forget about clipping the second line into the pro after you unclip the first one (instead of cleaning it) if the third needs the same traverse protection as the second.
The beginner should probably climb last, that's the way we do it, because the second must contend with both ropes, removing the difficult gear, and making sure the third is well protected.
If the beginner is a reall noob, the second makes sure hte third is tied in and anchored before he leaves the belay. IF you are rappelling the noob goes in the middle, so that someone can make sure the noob is set up correctly (and clean any backup gear), and there is someone below for a fireman's belay on the noob if needed.
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highangle
Mar 10, 2005, 12:41 AM
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What about this?
I have always understood that doubles may be clipped to the same piece, but using separate carabiners for each rope, and even better separate runners with separate biners on each.
This is only acceptable after reviewing the resulting angles and forces the ropes will place on the biners and gates when the system goes taut. Paying attention to the dynamics between the top piece with two biners and the two pieces clipped separately below that may be far from each other.
The biners could also trap the rope between them (like your harness or a belt) and create even worse friction.
The piece being clipped must be REALLY bomber and multi-directional because the forces can be hard to predict. Consider too the higher impact forces created by hitting both ropes.
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eyecannon
Mar 10, 2005, 12:43 AM
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For groups of 3 we just use two regular ropes and tie the middle guy into both. The middle guy can either clean some gear or not, preferably leaving appropriate directionals where necessary for the third guy. Not sure if this is the same as what you called "Single Rope with a trail line."
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pipsqueekspire
Mar 10, 2005, 5:55 AM
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What you say above sounds like lead-follow-follow a slow but safe way to go. What I am talking about is having both climbers (followers) climbing at the same time being belayed at the same time by the leader.
dirtineye said-
In reply to: YOU folks considering alternate clipping on a wandering route and then clipping both ropes to the same piece at a crux should consider what happens when one rope rubs rapidly over the other in a fall.
I have heard this arguement many times and no one to my knowledge has proved that the ropes actually do much rubbing in a fall to generate enough heat to do any core damage. A lot of slack would have to be out on only one rope or something weird would have to happen so that both ropes were damaged badly. It just doesnt seem likely to me that's all.
Anyone?
-pip
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braaaaaaaadley
Mar 10, 2005, 7:01 AM
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In reply to: For groups of 3 we just use two regular ropes and tie the middle guy into both. The middle guy can either clean some gear or not, preferably leaving appropriate directionals where necessary for the third guy. Not sure if this is the same as what you called "Single Rope with a trail line."
Yup, this is what I do...
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montaniero
Mar 10, 2005, 12:48 PM
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When we climb in three, we use doubles. Leader climbs on both ropes, seconds follow in one strand of rope each. A double rope with sharp edge treatment (>8.6 mm.) is safe enough for the seconds to climb in one rope each in moderate terrain (5.10).
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tradklime
Mar 10, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: Con- some twins are not meant to belay with one rope ever- even a follower (skinny ropes cut)
Personnally, I have TR'd and had people follow on a single twin many times. I don't see it as an issue unless your rope is running over a very sharp edge. In that situation you should be concerned regardless of the rope size.
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keithlester
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Mar 10, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: Hi all! Pip posted this thread as it developed from a discussion we were having about a party of 3 climbing the east buttress of Mt. Whitney (I am going July 6 with two partners.) Question (for me) is: Can we climb on two thin singles as doubles? Can we clip the same pro when needed safely? If so, do you recommend separate biners on the sling? (edited to include some climber specs: me 130lbs, partners about 170lbs and 200lbs.) What trusted and well liked belay device do you recommend for this method? Tim mentioned a B52... Your responses are appreciated!
I've done alot of multi-pitch mountain climbs in a three. The method we used and found to be most effective, and time efficient, was leader on two 8mm doubles, bringing seconds up on one each. Seconds could simulclimb, leader belayed using a reversino in the auto-locking mode. On harder pitches, seconds climbed one at a time and that made it possible to give more time to anyone in need of help.
Leader led in blocks of 4 or 5 pitches, which was OK as we were doing 10 and 12 pitch routes on a typical day, so everybody got a shot at leading.
2nds tied on to prepared belays using slings, but leader made himself safe by tying in with one or both ropes. Seconds reflaked their own ropes when they reached the belay, leader re-racked the cleaned gear. On leader changes, old leader gave the rope of the opposite colour to the new leader.
We protected traverses by several methods, two bits of gear close together, one for each rope; two runners on one bomber piece and ropes clipped one into each runner; but mostly, 1st 2nd unclipped and placed 2nd 2nd's rope into the runner.
Hope that helps.
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fire_eyes
Mar 10, 2005, 7:58 PM
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Keith, that was darned clear. Much thanks for your post! This is pretty much what Freedom of the Hills says too...
:righton:
Darcy
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bubba
Mar 10, 2005, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: Hi all! Pip posted this thread as it developed from a discussion we were having about a party of 3 climbing the east buttress of Mt. Whitney (I am going July 6 with two partners.) Question (for me) is: Can we climb on two thin singles as doubles? Can we clip the same pro when needed safely? If so, do you recommend separate biners on the sling? (edited to include some climber specs: me 130lbs, partners about 170lbs and 200lbs.) What trusted and well liked belay device do you recommend for this method? Tim mentioned a B52... Your responses are appreciated!
Beal makes a 9.1mm single that they call the "Joker." I can be used in double method, but I don't know about two different colours.
As far as belay devices go, anything that auto-blocks is what you want. Reverso, Matrix, B-52 (though I don't like it), etc...
Have fun.
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sactownclimber
Mar 10, 2005, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: Single rope using cows tail Pro- lightest method very simple rope management Pro- both followers have equal directionals always Con- If both followers are not similar abilities your hosed Con- Scary feeling of being pulled or actually being pulled off a climb in event of a fall Con- have to pass belay for last 25 feet of climb to bring up the last person Con- no help if you have to do long raps
Can somebody explain what a single rope with cow tails is? Never heard of this . . .
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chad-wl
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Mar 10, 2005, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: Can somebody explain what a single rope with cow tails is? Never heard of this . . .
My best guess is that it would be something like an alpine butterfly that you would tie 25ft from the end and simulclimb the 3rd and 2nd together.
The alpine butterfly can take loads in all both directions easily. The disadvantage is that if the 3rd falls, he pulls you down with him.
Your 3rd would be a better climber then the 2nd in most cases.
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fire_eyes
Mar 10, 2005, 9:43 PM
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Hey Bubba:
Yeah, the Joker comes in Fuscia and Yellow in the golden dry...but I think we are going to go with the Stinger IIIs, 70mm (9.4) because they'll work better with a Reverso, the 9.1 is a little too thin.
About the Joker Beal says "Used as a 'single' this rope may not be grippable by all hands, and in all devices: in effect its fineness makes it a rope which demands expert holding and controlling. 'Classic' devices, designed for higher diameter ropes, will give reduced braking, and some self-locking auto-brakes may simply not work."
So the Stingers it is!
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davidji
Mar 10, 2005, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, the Joker comes in Fuscia and Yellow in the golden dry...but I think we are going to go with the Stinger IIIs, 70mm (9.4) because they'll work better with a Reverso, the 9.1 is a little too thin. About the Joker Beal says "Used as a 'single' this rope may not be grippable by all hands, and in all devices: in effect its fineness makes it a rope which demands expert holding and controlling. 'Classic' devices, designed for higher diameter ropes, will give reduced braking, and some self-locking auto-brakes may simply not work."
BTW, A thin rope like the Joker is fine in a grippy device like the ATC-XP or Jaws. As are much thinner double ropes.
I've used 70m before, but rarely. If you aren't gonna do pitches longer than 60m (including the rope used in the belays) the extra length will just slow you down.
Have fun.
David
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pipsqueekspire
Mar 11, 2005, 4:36 AM
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chad-wl and sactownclimber wrote:In reply to: Can somebody explain what a single rope with cow tails is? Never heard of this . . . My best guess is that it would be something like an alpine butterfly that you would tie 25ft from the end and simulclimb the 3rd and 2nd together.
chad-wl you are close on your guess but the cows tail is a GIANT loop on that alpine butterfly giving the 2nd climber about 3 feet of room to wiggle. That is to say the 2nd can climb three feet above where the knot is and yet the 3rd wont feel a tug or the 2nd can climb 3 feet below the knot and just start to tug on the line- In my exprience you want the 3rd to be the weaker climber with the rope always taught and the 2nd to be the strong climber willing to risk minor falls and able to move smoothly without draggin on the rope unless 100% necessary.
this is a very fast very light way to go but your team should ideally be all about equal and the top should be a walk off.... otherwise you have to bring two ropes anyway!!!
-pip
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jimdavis
Mar 11, 2005, 6:06 AM
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There are "Half" ropes, and "Twin" ropes, and "Single" ropes.
Doubles doesn't make any sense to me.
Every manufacturer I've seen lists them this way...just trying to get everyone on the same page.
Jim
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pipsqueekspire
Mar 11, 2005, 6:30 AM
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Half and Double mean the same thing which makes NO sense to me either but for some reason most people talk about them as 'doubles'
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keithlester
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Mar 11, 2005, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: Half and Double mean the same thing which makes NO sense to me either but for some reason most people talk about them as 'doubles'
Strictly speaking they are called half ropes, because each rope is half of your safety system, but people have always called them doubles, cos you have to use 2 of them. So for "doubles" read "half ropes". A half rope will have the half symbol on its end marker labels. Half rope technique usually involves clipping only one rope into any one runner, its great inherent advantage being the facility to protect the leader on one colour while he is clipping the other colour. This involves some skill on the part of the 2nd, but the skill may be easily learnt.
Twin ropes are another animal entirely, they are designed to be used as a pair, and both ropes are meant to be clipped to every runner. This is why they are often the same colour, since you dont need to specify which one is which when clipping. A single piece of twin rope is not rated to take leader falls, whereas a single piece of half rope is rated for leader falls.
The twin rope technique is falling out of use in most spheres of climbing, but I believe it can still be found in alpine climbing, where its main advantages are lightness, and the facility of long abseils. Modern half ropes are much the same weight as twins, so even the advantage of lightness is pretty much nixed now.
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jimdavis
Mar 11, 2005, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Half and Double mean the same thing which makes NO sense to me either but for some reason most people talk about them as 'doubles' people have always called them doubles, cos you have to use 2 of them. Twin ropes ... are designed to be used as a pair, and both ropes are meant to be clipped to every runner.
Thats why I hate the term "doubles" and only talk about Halfs and Twins...
Cheers,
Jim
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keithlester
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Mar 12, 2005, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Half and Double mean the same thing which makes NO sense to me either but for some reason most people talk about them as 'doubles' people have always called them doubles, cos you have to use 2 of them. Twin ropes ... are designed to be used as a pair, and both ropes are meant to be clipped to every runner. The reason you stated for people calling halfs "doubles" could be applied to twins too; cause "you have to use 2 of them". Thats why I hate the term "doubles" and only talk about Halfs and Twins... Cheers, Jim
I quite agree Jim, I call them half ropes and twins too. Most of our group dont use twins, so the confusion rarely arises, but its better to be sure.
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