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holmeslovesguinness
Mar 11, 2005, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The dirtbag climber understands life in the moment (as many climbers do), total freedom. Unless you live completely off the grid, your argument is not sound. Your "total freedom" is contingent upon living parasitically on the peripheries of the most exploitative, destructive, and selfish culture in the history of humanity. The obscene wealth of this country is what makes doing so possible in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I've done too much dirtbagging to cast aspersions at those now choosing to do the same. But I urge you not to fool yourselves by thinking you're not complicit in the ills of our society just because you live in the dirt in Hidden Valley. That's either self-delusion, rationalization, are naivete. -Nubbler
Bingo. A tad cynical, but right on the money.
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cfnubbler
Mar 11, 2005, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Bingo. A tad cynical, but right on the money.
I wish it were cynicism. I think it's just honest.
-Nubbler
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climbhigh2005
Mar 11, 2005, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: No, society is the problem.
couldn't have put it better myself... :D :applause:
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yanqui
Mar 11, 2005, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: ... the most exploitative, destructive, and selfish culture in the history of humanity.
And who would willing participate in such a society? Certainly not you! At least a parasite can help to bring about the downfall of its host. If society is really as bad as you say, then it seems that the willing participants are the ones who should be stood up and shot, and not the parasites. Weren't Hitler and his generals more responsible for Nazi Germany than some wino in the street? Certainly they're the ones who wound up on trial (and not the parasites).
Oh, by the way: where can we go to live that culture is not exploitative, destructive and selfish? Or should we just hmmmm and haaaaa about that?
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cfnubbler
Mar 11, 2005, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: And who would willing participate in such a society? Certainly not you! .
I'm as guilty as most, and more than some. I'm just being honest.
In reply to: At least a parasite can help to bring about the downfall of its host
Not all parasites destroy their hosts. I would argue that dirtbag climbers are of this sort, not some shadowy subversive force eating away at our destructive culture. LOL- talk about an inflated sense of self-importance!
In reply to: If society is really as bad as you say, then it seems that the willing participants are the ones who should be stood up and shot
I'm not saying anyone should be shot. Like many bleeding heart liberals, I don't believe in the death penalty. But that's another topic!
In reply to: where can we go to live that culture is not exploitative, destructive and selfish?
Choosing whether or not to live in an exploitative, destructive and selfish manner is not a matter of where, but how one chooses to live. The answer to your misguided question, however is that you do what you can. Living as close to completely off the grid as possible is one way to mitigate your personal impact, and something I aspire to, but have not yet had the courage to do. Perhaps some day. Until them, I'm a hypocrite and admit it.
In reply to: Or should we just hmmmm and haaaaa about that.
That's your affair. But since you asked, I think you should do considerably more than hmmm and haaaa. The choice is yours.
-Nubbler
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climbhigh2005
Mar 11, 2005, 6:18 PM
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I understand both sides of the debate. I do know many climbers that have lived the 'dirtbag homeless life" for a while... however I do not know any climber that actually lived like that forever... and even if they do, they are doing what they need to survive... not everyone will "become a dirtbag climber" because that is not everyone's interest... that statement could work in any situation... if everyone was a doctor we would have no teachers, no factories, no food supply, no engineers, and you get my point... I dont think climbers are hurting society... they do what they have to do to be happy and survive... just because their idea of happiness and getting by doesnt require owning a mansion and a jaquar does not mean they are useless... whatever makes them happy let them be.... I find that dirtbag climbers are the most interested people I've met... I wouldn't change them for the world...
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elpollo
Mar 11, 2005, 6:36 PM
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dirtbags contirbute a lot! they contibute to climb harder and harder, and make us have hope we can someday climb as well as some of them do, contributing an incentive for us, which makes us better... so actually I think they're pretty important
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yanqui
Mar 11, 2005, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: . LOL- talk about an inflated sense of self-importance!
I'm not sure who this refers to. Someone real, or imagined? Since I'm anything but a dirtbagging climber, it couldn't possibly refer to me :D
In reply to: I'm not saying anyone should be shot. Like many bleeding heart liberals, I don't believe in the death penalty. But that's another topic!
Actually, I live in a country that doesn't practice the death penalty. Which is fine with me. I was speaking figuratively here, and not voicing any support for the death penalty. Get it?
In reply to: Choosing whether or not to live in an exploitative, destructive and selfish manner is not a matter of where, but how one chooses to live.
My point exactly.
In reply to: The answer to your misguided question, however is that you do what you can. Living as close to completely off the grid as possible is one way to mitigate your personal impact, and something I aspire to, but have not yet had the courage to do.
Isn't that what dirtbagging is all about?
In reply to: That's your affair. But since you asked, I think you should do considerably more than hmmm and haaaa. The choice is yours.
The choice is mine ....
once again, I couldn't agree with you more!
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cfnubbler
Mar 11, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: I'm not sure who this refers to. Someone real, or imagined? Since I'm anything but a dirtbagging climber, it couldn't possibly refer to me
No, the statement was not intended to refer to you. It was a commentary on the idea that by choosing to be a dirtbag climber, one is somehow subverting what I contend is a destructive (and ultimately suicidal!) culture. That seemed to be what you were implying, and any dirtbag climber who believes that, IMHO, has a very inflated sense of self importance.
I was well aware that you were speaking figuratively when talking about shooting people, but I thought your analogy was so absurd that I responded tongue in cheek. Get it?
Finally, no, I don't believe dirtbag climbing is about living off the grid. I believe it is about self gratification. At least that's why I did it for years in my youth. The fact that I was on the fringes of society in my full time climber years was entirely incidental, and I contend that intent is important. Most dirtbag climbers don't live in the dirt to live more lightly on the earth, or to subvert our destuctive culture. They do it because nobody will pay them to be dirtbag climbers, so they can't afford to live in a plush house and still climb fulltime. And I call bullsh#t on most claims to the contrary.
-Nubbler
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plund
Mar 11, 2005, 7:30 PM
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Didn't read the whole thread, someone may have said this before, but....I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but PEOPLE are selfish. Wait, I'll generalize further....LIVING ORGANISMS are selfish. Unless you're a worker bee, termite or ant (which could be regarded as extensions of the queen's body) SELF-INTEREST / preservation / propagation is the dominant impulse. Strip away the BS, that's how it breaks down...IMHO, of course! Some beings are more obvious in their self-interest than others, but it's there just the same...
edited for annoying spelling error...the annoying content remains...
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dontmaytagme
Mar 11, 2005, 8:00 PM
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It is a shame I had class and not able to post earlier.
Of course there is some variant of being selfish in our
sport. There is in any other sport, even those that use
balls.
To say we're not is silly. We're definetely not a group
sport such as, say, my friends example of ultimate frisbee.
I was in DC this past week or so, and this topic came up.
Climbers may not be selfish, but at least they are not the
typical socialite.
ja.
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yanqui
Mar 11, 2005, 8:12 PM
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In reply to: I was well aware that you were speaking figuratively when talking about shooting people, but I thought your analogy was so absurd that I responded tongue in cheek. Get it?
Ok. Funny joke. Ha ha. I had to wipe the spit off my computer screen.
In reply to: Finally, no, I don't believe dirtbag climbing is about living off the grid.
I'm not sure what living off the grid is, or why anyone would wanna do it, but as a rough generality most of the climbers I've known have been less materialistic and more environmentally active than say, the average Walmart shopper. Or even the average participant in some of the less exploitative and less destructive cultures I've experienced (I have never experienced a less selfish culture than American culture). To me, that's a good thing, be they dirtbags or not.
In reply to: I believe it is about self gratification.
To a certain extent it's ALWAYS about self gratification. Whether you're dirtbagging or alleviating the guilt you feel for living in 'the most exploitative, destructive, and selfish culture in the history of humanity.'
In reply to: At least that's why I did it for years in my youth. The fact that I was on the fringes of society in my full time climber years was entirely incidental, and I contend that intent is important.
But isn't the fact that you valued THE ACTIVITY of climbing over, say, the accumulation of material wealth, money, etc. part of what defines you as a person? Apparently you now feel very strongly about living lightly on the earth. Why isn't this connected to your activities as a kid?
In reply to: Most dirtbag climbers don't live in the dirt to live more lightly on the earth, or to subvert our destuctive culture. They do it because nobody will pay them to be dirtbag climbers, so they can't afford to live in a plush house and still climb fulltime. And I call bullsh#t on most claims to the contrary.
I don't to know why most dirtbag climbers do what they do. One of the only 'true' dirtbaggers I've ever known, Jose Pereyra, was one of the least selfish, least destructive and least exploitative people I've ever met. Most would have a long way to go to match his lifestyle.
What I DO think, though is that dirtbagging, even though it's only temporary, can help some people learn to adapt to, and value, a way of life that is less materialistic and more in tune to the environment than the 'normal' modern lifestyle (whatever the hell that means).
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cfmwh
Mar 11, 2005, 8:35 PM
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I'm in AK time zone, wish I could have posted earlier. We are not the problem, society is the problem. All I can say is that not or contributing as little to the Fascist-Corporate-America-Over-The-Top-Capitalist-Juggernaut is probably one of the best things you can do for society and the world for that matter. Yep, that's how I feel, sorry to sound so political on this site...back to actual climbing threads. Interesting post though.
"America...just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anyone else in the world that makes us uncomfortable"
-Hunter S. Thompson
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cfmwh
Mar 11, 2005, 8:42 PM
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I'm in AK time zone...wish I could have posted earlier.
We are not the problem, society is the problem. Not contributing or contributing as little as possible to the Fascist-Over-The-Top-Capitalist-Corporate- America Juggernaut (that's a mouthful) is probably the best thing one can do for society, and the world for that matter. Yep, that's how I feel, sorry to get so political on this site...back to climbing threads, interesting posts though.
"America...just a nation of 200 million used-car salesmen with all the money we need to by guns and no qualms about killing anyone who makes us uncomfortable" -Hunter S. Thompson
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cfmwh
Mar 11, 2005, 8:50 PM
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Sorry 'bout the double post...didn't think my first one went through...
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damon99
Mar 11, 2005, 9:19 PM
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lets break the "climber" picture.
what is a "typical" climber from poeople point of view?
in a binnie, with lots of facial hair, and fingernail dirt, dirty stoner.
who am i?
security at the TV station, college studient, workin my way to become a police officer. Selfish? well, if sacrifice ur life for the community is selfish than we live in the nutshell :)
lets keep all of the stereotypes away from our minds, and just enjoy rock climbing, god damn it!
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noshoesnoshirt
Mar 11, 2005, 9:42 PM
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"...taking and not giving back, demanding that "productivity" and "earnings"
keep on increasing with time, the System removing from the rest of the World
these vast quantities of energy to keep its own tiny desperate fraction
showing a profit: and not only most of humanity - most of the World,
animal, vegetable, and mineral is laid to waste in the process. The System
may or may not understand that it's only buying time. And that time is an
artificial resource to begin with, of no value to anyone or anything but the
System, which sooner or later must crash to its death, when its addiction to
energy has become more than the rest of the world can supply, dragging with
it innocent souls all along the chain of life. Living in the Sytem is like
riding across the country in a bus driven by a maniac bent on suicide..."
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cfmwh
Mar 11, 2005, 9:51 PM
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Where is that quote from, noshoesnoshirt?
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noshoesnoshirt
Mar 11, 2005, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: Where is that quote from, noshoesnoshirt?
"Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon. Took me two seasons of living on the road to read it (read it in serial at Barnes and Nobel's across the southwest)
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cfmwh
Mar 11, 2005, 10:00 PM
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Thanks noshoesnoshirt...I'll check it out.
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coldclimb
Mar 11, 2005, 10:10 PM
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Haha, this is a dumb thread now.
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joebanks
Mar 13, 2005, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: So I was having a friendly chat with a friend the other day and the dirtbag lifestyle came up. Before I knew it, said friend was practially yelling at me about how selfish these people are in not being productive members of society and doing only what they want to do when they want to do it. Anyone have anythoughts on how selfish climbers can be? Is it a problem? Do you agree?
I can't agree that climber's are selfish. The act of pursuing an interest of choice is no more selfish than any other sports enthusiast. As much as our egos push us to think we hold the patent on obsession we're no different than any other group.
Plus it all depends on the individual and what their motivation is; some climb to numb the pain of existence and if the pain is great enough they'll dedicate their existence to the sport. So if you participate in any sport in excess to "escape" your reality then others may view your pursuit as selfish. Ex. A friend of mine plays hockey every chance he gets because his wife is unbearable and he can't stand to be at home; some consider his pursuit of hockey selfish but for him it's all about personal survival.
And others climb because they enjoy the sport, the movement, being outdoors with good friends. They are helping newbies find their way, sharing their love of the rock and their home crag, making routes safer, developing new areas for others. These are hardly selfish activities.
So I guess it all comes down to motivation, any act can be selfish, it just depends on the intent of the individual. "Climbing" or "climbers" as a group are not selfish, but there are selfish people in society.
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crag_shwagger
Mar 13, 2005, 7:25 PM
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Naw is the epitome of produdvtive...
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foilball
Mar 13, 2005, 8:48 PM
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By being a "selfish climber" you are productive members of society. We are creating industry and comerce. Climbing is one of the fastest growing sports in the US, why? Well first of all, because it's really fun, and secondly because of people like all of us. We love this sport and want more people to experience it by spending money in the gyms, buying equipment, paying park entrance fees, posting on RC.com ect.
I don't know anything about how RockClimbing.com works, but i would imagine the advertisements on the left side of your screen are producing revenues for someone. If you're against profits and corporate america, you shouldn't be posting on a site that advertises for profit-seeking companies or buying gear from REI. (all companies are profit-seeking)
Capitalism works on the basis of individuals striving for some sort of utility. You create a demand for goods and services because of you're quest for happiness through climbing.
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rockbiter
Mar 14, 2005, 12:09 AM
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Wow. Didnt quite expect to get such a response out of this...and suprisingly from both sides. To the comfort of all, I find it relieving that there are both sides to this argument in this community. Obviously the dirtbag lifestyle isnt for every one, and at least those that are arent making life any more difficult for the rest of us, like some other obsessions. Cheers for all your posts.
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