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ptlassiter
Jun 26, 2002, 5:18 AM
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I was taught to use a re-woven figure eight for tying into the harness. Last week I was shown a re-roven bowline technique. Mountaineering The Freedom of The Hills references the re-woven bowline for tying into a seat harness and a bowline with a yosemite finish as a possible knot to use for top-roping.
The bowline is much easier to untie, especially after falling and your hands are shaking from fear - uh, I mean exertion.
Any opinions about the pros and cons?
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doosh
Jun 26, 2002, 5:21 AM
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Double bowline on a bight.
If you are still using an 8, you aren't climbing 5.13...
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paintinhaler
Jun 26, 2002, 5:29 AM
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Where is the best place to get more info on this knot. I want to make sure I get it down right before I use it. Thanks -wEs-
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apollodorus
Jun 26, 2002, 5:30 AM
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If you tuck the tail of the bowline, it is a way cool knot to tie into. But, most climbers will freak and want you to use the fig-8. If you double the bowline (double wrapping either the initial loop or the U-turn wrap as a loop and then wrap), it's even easier to untie and is safer.
The strength of the different knots is pretty much the same. The issue is whether they will come undone.
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darkside
Jun 26, 2002, 6:05 AM
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Try this link as a reference for a variety of knots. It is also in my profile.
Ropers Knot Web Page - http://www.realknots.com/knots/
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ptlassiter
Jun 26, 2002, 6:32 AM
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The book I referenced has the knot. I'm sure some other knot books would have it as well. Warning, Warning Will Robinson - Make sure you tie it correctly!!
Hmmm - suddenly I feel not right about my post on this subject. If you haven't used this knot don't learn it out of a book or on this forum. Get someone with experience to show it to you!! Please.
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rickoldskool
Jun 26, 2002, 9:13 AM
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PT, your right about the bowline. It's easy to tye and easy to screw up if you don't use it alot. DOOSH, double bowline on a bight is not a tye-in knot for rope to harness. This link shows the yose' follow thru for a bowline.
Yosemite bowline
In my humble opinion untying a "eight" isn't hard to do under any circumstance. So the argument about what's easier to untie, is really rather weak when it comes to deciding which knot. I continue to use an eight because I can do it in my sleep, and can recognize a bad knot almost immediatley.
[ This Message was edited by: rickoldskool on 2002-06-26 02:20 ]
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clymber
Jun 26, 2002, 11:46 AM
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I guess i will never climb a 13 since i use figure 8. What sort of bs line is that use a different knot to do a 13. Thats like saying if I start drinking Zima I will have all the models coming up to me.IF you do the mountaineer back up on 8 no matter how far you fall its a seasy know to get out
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hunter
Jun 26, 2002, 12:50 PM
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PtLassiter,
Coming from a boating background I am comfortable with a bowline but the figure 8 is easier for most folks to get used to tieing properly.
Here's a thread that was a few weeks back regarding this very subject.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=9785&forum=16&35
I don't know that any conclusion was reached other than this: Use a knot that's proven, you can tie properly, and are comfortable with
I saw Freedom of the Hills in a climbing store the other day and ALMOST picked it up. What's your opinion of it?
I have a few of John Longs books and he's got a lot of great stuff (though you have to watch out for the typos which sometimes contradict the message). I also have On Rope, 2nd Edition which is a Great reference book for all types of rope work and gear. If you haven't seen it I highly recomend it.
Hunter
[ This Message was edited by: hunter on 2002-06-26 05:51 ]
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jammer
Jun 26, 2002, 12:54 PM
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The bowline note was used for it's ease of untying after being under stress, but unless the original bowline is secured by another knot it can untie or loosen when no stress is applied. THe Yosemite Bowline eliminates this issue. As for the figure 8 ... I see no problem using it ... and no ... I'm not climbing any high numbers ... just safe climbing!
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ptlassiter
Jun 26, 2002, 3:39 PM
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Hunter,
I have a copy of Freedom of the Hills I purchased when I started climbing in 87. I've been moving around and my library is packed up. I couldn't stand not having it at hand so I bought another copy (plus there is a new version out). Guess that's the long winded answer to your question?
I've never reached 5.13. Now that I've changed my knot I'm looking forward to cranking some 5.13's! Never imagined climbing 5.13's could be done so easily. All those pull-ups with weights hanging off my waist - wasted time. Oh-well - live and learn.
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ravens_wing_jim
Jun 26, 2002, 4:17 PM
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Hence the name doosh.
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paulc
Jun 26, 2002, 4:52 PM
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I use the double bowline almost all the time (so far no 13s). As long as you can tie it right then it is all good. I like the Yos finish although I have heard it called elsewise elsewhere, but usually put a double fishermans in either case (reg finish or Yos finish) just cause you don't really want that knot to come untied, and it has a tendency to loosen when it is not under load.
Whatever works for you. And fig 8s suck to untie if you take a whipper on them. Take a good 40 footer freefalling fall and you will never use a fig 8 again.
Paul
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doosh
Jun 26, 2002, 6:22 PM
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Ok, so after reviewing that page, I see that what I have been calling a double bowline (due to the doubling of the loop the bow passes through is also called a "Yosemite bowline" and CREATES the bight in the rope. The "true" double bowline on a bight is a single bowline with the rope bight taken before tying the knot.
Sorry...
This knot is used because an 8 is impossible to untie if you take a couple of 10 footers on the crux section.
Sure you won't climb harder because you change your knot, but you will change your know once you start climbing harder.
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jt512
Jun 26, 2002, 6:55 PM
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I tie in with a double bowline with a bowline backup. The knot was featured in a recent Tech Tip in Climbing marazine. The following links show how to tie the bowline backup. Note that the article specifically advised against this knot for beginners. When you tie a bowline, every turn must be made exactly correctly. Any turn made in the wrong direction will result in an unreliable knot.
Fig. 1
Fig. 2
Fig. 3
Fig. 4
Fig. 5
Fig. 6
-Jay
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offwidth
Jun 27, 2002, 2:15 AM
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I use either a figure-eight or Jack's variation of the double bowline (aka yosemite bowline), depending on circumstances. I always always always back both up.
The double bowline is easy to untie. I'm a big boy, over 200 pounds, and that figure-eight is mighty hard to untie after a fall. Especially with forearms burning.
That double bowline is easy to mess up. The figure-eight is much easier to check.
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doosh
Jun 27, 2002, 6:07 AM
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Lets see how many people can post that exact thing !
C'mon 180 users!
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darkside
Jun 27, 2002, 6:34 AM
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Regardless of which knot you use or which is easiest to untie after a fall, always lower off and UNTIE/RETIE following a fall. The knots tightening absorbs part of the falls impact force. Also if it was a hard fall, the rope will need a little time to recover its elongation. I'm talking falls here though, not hangdogging.
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punk
Jun 27, 2002, 12:06 PM
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Back to your question
Pro
Easy to untie after being tighten
No need to a starter figure (like the 8 )
Can be done with one hand only
Cons
Not a straight up kind of rig
Very easy to mess-up the right orientation which can lead to devastating consequences
Personally, I use to tie with double and Yos finish for a while (2 years maybe…) but after couple of times that I almost climb with it tied wrong in the dark when I was tired and cold on alpine routes…I went back to the eight. I figure K.I.S.S. at least it won’t come undone when I need it
hope it helped
Climb safe
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-06-27 05:06 ]
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phil_nev
Jun 27, 2002, 1:08 PM
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A knot that you can untie easily.... sounds lovely. I like the eight, i big meatty figure 8. Just personal preferance.
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howitzer
Jun 27, 2002, 3:01 PM
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I've used both, and the bowline is easier to untie but not so easy to tie in the first place. I just find it confusing - so I use the figure 8 with the extra pass, which makes it easier to untie after a fall etc. Just a suggestion.
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doosh
Jun 27, 2002, 4:24 PM
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How many of you big, meaty 8 users climb 5.13 ?
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howitzer
Jun 27, 2002, 4:42 PM
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oh, I forgot, not using the bowline makes me a sucky climber though, so don't take my suggestion seriously, take doosh-bags word for it. Afterall he's a better climber than everyone else around here
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ravens_wing_jim
Jun 27, 2002, 5:18 PM
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I use the 8, and I dont climb 5-13.
But then again...who fu*king cares?
And doosh, you think that everyone who
climbs 5-13 uses the bowline?
Do you climb 5-13?
Do you climb?
Or are you just a doosh?
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punk
Jun 27, 2002, 5:30 PM
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You guys just dont gets it… doosh is the devils advocate
The guy is funny as hell… I cant believe what I read here…why in the would you would take him seriously… just look on his handle name… .he know what he's doing…and if anyone take him seriously that’s their problem
Haahahaha doooosh right on
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-06-27 10:58 ]
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