|
tradrenn
Mar 22, 2005, 3:06 AM
Post #1 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
I can climb with this woman but she wants to only belay with Munter Hitch. Is that ok ? Is anybody else belaying a trad (or sport) like that ? Did anybody actually catch a fall with Munter Hitch ? Is it save if used correctly ?
I'm asking cause I read somewhere that this knot slips (or may slip ) if loaded more then 1000 Ibs.
Thanks for all your help.
|
|
|
|
|
druide
Mar 22, 2005, 3:16 AM
Post #2 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 5
|
I did belay 5 days with a Munter hitch cause i lost my atc and i used it many time before. For me it's as safe as a device except that it's more complicate to set-up especially for rappel. You have to watch the gate of your biner cause the rope sometime unscrew it!
|
|
|
|
|
jfk
Mar 22, 2005, 3:18 AM
Post #3 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 25, 2004
Posts: 36
|
With both strands parallel, the Munter will hold more force than your ATC, etc.
With the break strand down, aka a tube-style breaking position, the Munter and the ATC brethren hold about the same amount of force.
Frankly, since a Munter will lock in any position, I'd trust a Munter belay from a stranger before a standard belay device...less potential to screw it up.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Mar 22, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #4 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
the Munter is fine for lead or TR, its a perfectly safe way to belay provided the person doing it is familiar and competent with it (which i can only assume she is if she insists on using it instead of a plate of some sort).
as for your reading that the knot slips at 1000lbs, you're thinking of the clove hitch, which although that seems to be a common rumor about the hitch, is not true.
the last point- not entirely sure whether the Munter on lead would twist your rope (i believe if used correctly, it does not twist the rope), so use her rope! :)
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Mar 22, 2005, 3:20 AM
Post #5 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
She will be rappeling with it but I have 2 shants so I will give her one and we should be ok.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 22, 2005, 3:42 AM
Post #6 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
In reply to: With both strands parallel, the Munter will hold more force than your ATC, etc. With the break strand down, aka a tube-style breaking position, the Munter and the ATC brethren hold about the same amount of force. Frankly, since a Munter will lock in any position, I'd trust a Munter belay from a stranger before a standard belay device...less potential to screw it up.
Absolutly true about the strength and Me too on the trust issue.
I suspect that is because folks who learn the Munter tend to be more experienced in general.
|
|
|
|
|
warrior_prong
Mar 22, 2005, 9:17 AM
Post #7 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 39
|
If you're not overly comfortable climbing with a partner who won't use anything other than the munter, you could try asking exactly what features of it she prefers vs a normal device. Maybe she has been scaremongered before and has an irational fear of them. Has she ever actually used one. Deep and meaningful crag counselling could sort the issue out.
Twisty ropes could follow continual munter using!
|
|
|
|
|
matt_sb
Mar 22, 2005, 10:20 AM
Post #8 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2003
Posts: 1
|
A comment from a swiss guy: here the munter hitch is probably the most used belay method. many gyms teach the munter as standard/beginners belay technique. i like this method, beside some handling issues (thick ropes or rope twisting). but YOU have to be comfortable with your partner and his/her belay method.
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Mar 22, 2005, 11:08 AM
Post #9 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2577
|
In reply to: If you're not overly comfortable climbing with a partner who won't use anything other than the munter, you could try asking exactly what features of it she prefers vs a normal device. Maybe she has been scaremongered before and has an irational fear of them. Has she ever actually used one. Deep and meaningful crag counselling could sort the issue out. Twisty ropes could follow continual munter using!
The Munter is a very common belay method over here. ATC and others are coming up but still most people rely on the Munter. I do belay with both. I like the smooth action of the ATC when belaying TR, but as I started with the Munter I still switch to it when it comes to belaying lead - just because I feel more secure with it.
If used properly (strands parallel always) you'll not kink the rope and safety is not an issue. Friction in the knot is higher than in an ATC. According to this abstract ATC slips at ~ 2kN, Munter at ~3kN. Though it's easy to give a soft catch due to the switch of the hitch in the HMS while catching.
The only argument against the Munter as belay method is rope wear - as the friction is provided by the rope-on-rope action. (Rappelling on a Munter on the other hand is a pain: Rope kinks like hell and it's more like bouncing down... may suit an emergency but I'll never do it again if not forced to.)
In the end I'd always prefer my belayer to belay me with the method she/he prefers (as long as it's not completely off). The Munter is recommended and proven to be save by the UIAA and other trustworthy organisations. Being used to it may outweight a lot of objective maybe-disadvantages in handling.
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
hex
Mar 22, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #10 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 110
|
In reply to: She will be rappeling with it but I have 2 shants so I will give her one and we should be ok.
Couple of quick tips if you've never abseiled (rappelled) using a munter (aka italian) hitch...
If using two strands as in a normal abseil setup, treat the ropes as one and make one big munter hitch because if you do two seperate ones on the same carabiner or on two carabiners side by side there will be a huge amount of friction...
Also, orientate the locking carabiner in such a way so that the ropes running through it tighten the gate rather than unscrew it! play with the hitch for a while and you'll see what i mean.
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Mar 22, 2005, 12:09 PM
Post #11 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
In reply to: I can climb with this woman . . .
Now you're just bragging.
:wink:
|
|
|
|
|
wjca
Mar 22, 2005, 2:12 PM
Post #12 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2005
Posts: 7545
|
[quote="tisar"]In reply to: If used properly (strands parallel always) you'll not kink the rope and safety is not an issue. - Daniel
Safety is always an issue, at least with me, regardless of what my belayer is using.
|
|
|
|
|
tallnik
Mar 22, 2005, 3:48 PM
Post #13 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 595
|
Muntner is great for belaying directly off the anchor.
I don't like the muntner as it puts a lot of wear and tear on your rope compared to an atc, etc.
Use her rope.
Nik
|
|
|
|
|
a_guy_named_smith
Mar 22, 2005, 3:56 PM
Post #14 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 142
|
the real question is
after getting to the top of the climb did she bust out the 6 biner rap?
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Mar 22, 2005, 4:05 PM
Post #15 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: I can climb with this woman but she wants to only belay with Munter Hitch. Is that ok ? Is anybody else belaying a trad (or sport) like that ? Did anybody actually catch a fall with Munter Hitch ? Is it save if used correctly?
Works fine. Nice to have in the toolbox.
I caught a 50 foot lead fall, on an 8.1mm rope, on a munter hitch. No problemo. Didn't notice any slipping.
Very safe and hard to use incorrectly, IMHO.
-Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
topher
Mar 22, 2005, 4:57 PM
Post #16 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 477
|
very safe very good go to europe and most people dont even know what an atc is!
i recomend that you learn it and use it on ocation, sure helpful if you drop that little atc thing.
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Mar 22, 2005, 7:19 PM
Post #17 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
Just make sure she can pay out rope fast enough when you lead ... it's harder to pay out rope smoothly than with a plate or a tube.
and if you're climbing any place where twisted/hung up ropes would be a problem, i'd discourage her from rapping with it. they cause a lot of twisting and wear on rappel.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Mar 23, 2005, 4:51 AM
Post #18 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
For now I will be climbing with her at the local crags, the tallest is 31 meters ( 95 feet ) and to get dawn we will walk dawn cause that's the local rule ( that way other people can start climbing as soon as she is on the top )
A huge thanks to all off you for replying.
I will climb with her.
And I will try rappeling with Munter Hitch. ( It's never too late to learn something new )
|
|
|
|
|
tradkelly
Mar 23, 2005, 5:02 AM
Post #19 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2003
Posts: 278
|
In reply to: Also, orientate the locking carabiner ...
Folks, "orientate" is not a word. It's "orient." Please. Yep, what you are asking will definitely work (and well) with it's caveats, but please learn the language. Sorry, pet peeve from working with too many Sergeants for way too many years. The simpler word is much more correct and will earn you points with the edumaceted crowd.
Just another grammar nazi,
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 23, 2005, 5:21 AM
Post #20 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Also, orientate the locking carabiner ... Folks, "orientate" is not a word. It's "orient." Please. Yep, what you are asking will definitely work (and well) with it's caveats, but please learn the language. Sorry, pet peeve from working with too many Sergeants for way too many years. The simpler word is much more correct and will earn you points with the edumaceted crowd. Just another grammar nazi,
Except, of course, that you are wrong. Orientate is indeed a word, meaning the same thing as orient. Much as flammable and inflammable mean the same thing. Get a dictionary.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Mar 23, 2005, 5:37 AM
Post #21 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
Personally, I would prefer that someone belaying me used a device such as ATC, Reverso, etc. I find it is easier for me to check the belay to insure it is set-up properly.
A Munter is an acceptable option, but personally I'd prefer an ATC.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Mar 23, 2005, 5:54 AM
Post #22 of 22
(4776 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Also, orientate the locking carabiner ... Folks, "orientate" is not a word. It's "orient." Please. Yep, what you are asking will definitely work (and well) with it's caveats, but please learn the language. Sorry, pet peeve from working with too many Sergeants for way too many years. The simpler word is much more correct and will earn you points with the edumaceted crowd. Just another grammar nazi, Except, of course, that you are wrong. Orientate is indeed a word, meaning the same thing as orient. Much as flammable and inflammable mean the same thing. Get a dictionary. Curt
Curt,
what definition will i orientate myself to when looking up the non-word ROTFLMAO! :lol: ?
Sty
|
|
|
|
|
|
