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glockaroo
Mar 22, 2005, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: ...It was mentioned equalizing two not so great placements, wouldn't it be faster to make it self equalizing with a sewn runner?
I wasn't clear enough. What I mean is yes, equalize the 2 pieces w/ the "sliding X" but do it with a tied runner that you have retied to the shortest length that still equalizes the 2 pieces, thus maximizing your reach to the next placement. A short sewn runner might happen to be the right size, but that doesn't happen often.
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peroxide
Mar 22, 2005, 4:45 PM
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Great hints from glockaroo..several I need to try. I am totally a gumby at this but nonetheless and aggresively learning gumby. Since this is not about nailing some A5 horror show I will keep chatting.
STACKING
Stacking, in my opinion, comes most naturally to those that have a small pin rack...like when you are starting out (unless you are part of the VISA generation and bought two full sets of pins). I got pins in an old Ebay purchase and when I got into aid starting playing with them. I stacked out of necessity.
You have to work with what you have. In virgin chosspile this is less the case since the placements are not boxed out etc. Nonetheless, find a placement and then DONT choose the optimum pin.
Stacking works wonders on building the part of a climber's brain that needs to "engineer" placements. Think of the forces, the camming action, etc of the placements. I had a KB placement fail over and over when I bouncetested it until I pinned an angle between a nubbin on the wall and the blade and then flexed the KB against it to hold it in place. It looked like Chouinard Jenga and finally held. Otherwise I was looking at putting in a head or crumbly hook.
HEADS
I should stress the importance of having the right tools to place a head. At least a punch or you will discover quickly how head placements blow out (I am pretty deft with a hammer...but I still miss hit on occasion and this can lead to making a crap placement worse or accidentally chisseling a good placement...don't be that guy).
Fish's PDF on heading is at
http://www.fishproducts.com
It is a great tool for learning.
BEAKS in heads
The likelihood that you will need to place a head soon is pretty low. The likelihood you will come across a blown head on a route is pretty high. A great trick (and worth trying when you place heads while you practice) is to put a beak lightly tapped into the head itself. Cable blown? No problem...put a beak on it, step gingerly, and off you go.
Rock on
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peroxide
Mar 22, 2005, 5:12 PM
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SECOND STEPS
I think this is the best thing to learn low to the ground right when you are starting out or you will be lazy and scared from the get go.
PTPP has his way and everyone else seems to have their own.
So...my rules to getting higher in the aiders.
1) If it is vertical or overhanging I consider my 2nd steps as my top steps. Going higher, in my experience, only causes more pain and strain for little payback.
2) 2nd steps should feel money the rest of the time.
The trick is all about opposing forces and foot placement. To optimize this means having your rig customized.
On my adj. daisy I marked with pen the place to lock down for my 2nd steps, where when I step up, the daisy is perfectly tensioning me downwards toward the piece. This distance normally doesnt vary much for a variety of situations so marking it is perfect for me.
Also to add more stability I tripod my feet. This takes time getting used to. I have my feet in separate aiders that are at the same height and I push my toes into the wall and click my heels together like Dorothy and her red slippers. This tripod position, I find to be both stable and less taxing on the legs.
Last but not least...don't forget your free climbing techniques. Use features to help balance etc. Fiddling with gear normally requires one hand max.
This is one way of doing it. Other people have dedicated loops on their harness...I have even seen multilength fifis (which normally get tangled on everything).
Regards
Peroxide
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glockaroo
Mar 22, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: ...On my adj. daisy I marked with pen the place to lock down for my 2nd steps...
Great idea, peroxide. I will try that.
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mr8615
Mar 22, 2005, 7:15 PM
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Ok, perhaps I should've clarified. When using adjustable daisys, there are no pockets to clip into to lessen shock loading in the event of a daisy fall. I want to use adjustable daisys, those of you who do, do you use the ones with a built in screamer? Do you attach your own screamer (seems to defeat the purpose of adjustable daisys)? Do you just not worry about it? Lemme know what you think.
Mark
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sspssp
Mar 22, 2005, 8:45 PM
Post #31 of 66
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I can't remember which brand is which. I used to use the thin spectra adjustables (Metolius?). However, a friend of mine took a static fall and broke one. So I switched to the heavy nylon one with the large cam buckle (Yates?).
The screamer looks really bulky to me and no I don't use it. I stress about taking a daisy fall, but I don't do anything to prevent it (on rare occasions I will clip the rope and unhook the daisy before moving up, but usually I don't do this--because I want to move faster).
A screamer like device is, I think, a good idea. But it would be nice if it was much smaller. Daisy falls are only 4'~6' long. A "screamer" that only extended a couple of inches would absorb a lot of impact compared to no screamer, and it could be made really small.
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pmyche
Mar 22, 2005, 9:29 PM
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Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread.
***
Here's one: In instances where you need to keep yourself upright while you're not able to weight from the waist (on lead or cleaning, when slamming the fifi hook on something is too much trouble), you can use the inside corner of your elbow (rather than gripping with your hand) to give your arm a break.
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pmyche
Mar 22, 2005, 9:30 PM
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stuplicate
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moof
Mar 23, 2005, 9:02 AM
Post #34 of 66
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In reply to: Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread.
Yeah, frogging don't work for cleaning very well at all. I'm playing with a modification to the Mitchell rope walking method (uses a chest roller) that allows for cleaning on overhangs and moderately traversing stuff. The change is the addition of a fifi tethered to the same foot as the lower ascender to allow you to unweight the rope biner to unclip, but that automagically unhooks the fifi as you lower back out. Right now jugging and cleaning is almost as slow as leading for me, so I gots to try something...
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akclimber
Mar 23, 2005, 9:40 AM
Post #35 of 66
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread. Yeah, frogging don't work for cleaning very well at all. I'm playing with a modification to the Mitchell rope walking method (uses a chest roller) that allows for cleaning on overhangs and moderately traversing stuff. The change is the addition of a fifi tethered to the same foot as the lower ascender to allow you to unweight the rope biner to unclip, but that automagically unhooks the fifi as you lower back out. Right now jugging and cleaning is almost as slow as leading for me, so I gots to try something...
Whoh whoh whoh. One step at a time here, I got lost after "modification to the....." You got pics or diagram of this?
By the way, I thought I saw a stumpy version of a screamer by Yates earlier today, was only 6 or 8 in long.
So there I was, hammers, pins and hand drill in the bag, had to take care of some errands, then a mini snow storm started up. And I pussed out. Ah well, another day.
What is the most common length for a 3/8 hand drilled bolt? 2-1/2 inches?
Also, I noticed that there are constant refernces to old 1/4 inch bolts and how they suck. BUT, how good are they when new? Coudn't you put in a few 1/4 inchers while aiding to make things go faster?
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peroxide
Mar 23, 2005, 11:57 AM
Post #36 of 66
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FROG METHOD OF JUGGING
The only place you should use this is for free hanging ropes. It is good to learn if you are fixing lines on WFLT or some other overhanging route since it is quicker and less taxing on your arms.
However, once you have some wall to press your feet against, the standard Yosemite/long/middendorf method is preferred. Take short quick steps. Long steps will smoke you.
CLEANING
If the line is PERFECTLY vertical, the two jug method is quicker and more efficient. HOwever, since rarely is a line completely plumb, the jug and grigri method is what I think is the best.
ADJUSTABLE DAISIES
I really like adjustables. I learned on the standard but find that I climb quicker with adjustable at the cost of some security (they can and DO snap if you fall on them statically..this happened to PTPP when he was climbing Wyoming Sheep Ranch).
In my opinion the likelihood of having a daisy chain fall is really a function of pilot error. I unclip my lower daisy ASAP once I am on the next piece while clipping my rope into the lower piece. The slack and dynamic nature of the rope means a longer fall but WAY less likely of pulling out that lower piece if the top one blows.
With this method I avoid putting myself in a situation where if the top piece blows out and I start to fall I will fall on my daisy. Instead, fall on my climbing rope and if I really think the piece is junk I would have put a screamer on it.
The screamer on the daisy in theory makes sense for some A4 freakfest where that may be the only way of stopping the big plunge. but it also compromises how far you can cinch up on a daisy (which in turn can make 2nd stepping more difficult. I have not used one but I would like to hear what experience people have with them.
Also my note on marking your daisy is really a temporary measure since it will take about 5 trips to the crag before you have the distance dialed.
Rock on.
Andrzej
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peroxide
Mar 23, 2005, 2:41 PM
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MARK YOUR STEPS
If you have aid ladders that are not the color coded yates (I have Misty Mountain Ladders) I would recommend marking your steps with bright electrical tape.
I mark my top steps as one red stripe.
My seconds as two white stripes.
My thirds as three blue stripes.
Go USA.
However if you are weary of those top steps use green tape as in GO FOR IT. Or use reverse psychology like I do and put red tape down...as if the step is taunting you saying "Hey you...with all the shiny gear...you got no game going on up here..red means stop punk". Then show your aiders who is the boss and get on up there.
STYLING LIKE HAN SOLO
For me, since I am a gumby and have been trying this aid thing for a little more than a year, I needed to get practice quick without driving my girlfriend or belayer nuts by taking 7 hours to lead 35 feet of rock. So I taught myself how to aid solo with a grigri and clove hitch backup.
It takes a lot of homework, engineering, and dedication to work out a safe solo system. But once you do the legwork and can use a system that won't kill you it is a great tool for getting the kinks out.
I started on a bolt ladder (or easy sport climb) and got the movements down, experimented with different systems, and got good at clean aid (no hooks, pins etc on sport or trad routes...you can break holds with hooks!). Then I would rap the fixed line, clean the pitch, and then rap again so I could aid the moves the with a top rope grigri combo (always backed up).
If you can get through all the clusterf**ks, harness bruises, dropped gear, and smoked arms then you are probably ready to attempt a big wall.
SHOES
I personally think it is wise to always climb with comfy trad shoes with a shoe 3/4 support insert. It will make free to aid transitions easier and encourage to move quicker. Also it will give that extra bit of confidence and helps with the topstep tripod I described earlier.
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iamthewallress
Mar 23, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Peroxide...I like your motivational markings idea.
The thing that has helped me the most with the top step besides just staying motivated to move my ass up there in a speedier manner is working on my core strength. Last year I went a couple of times a week to an abs class at the gym and I found that I was much more stable and had much better endurance for getting higher in my steps with piles of gear for extended periods.
Other things that have helped with my high step stability/comfort...Learning the 'rest step' (standing on one straight leg with the other one bent back at the knee like a flamingo in reverse with your weight puched into that tensioned aider), learning how to 'pop up' from a squat into a position that's tensioned against my daisy, switching to adjustable daisies...although I think that a lot of the really fast people find that messing with these can slow you down.
Something that probably would help me go faster if I could do it more consistantly is spending less time staring at and futzing with my gear when I place it. If I was free climbing, I'd probably slam it in there and go. If I'm doing a C1 aid pitch, I'll probably still need to wiggle it and get to know it a bit before I get on it. It's fastest if you can just commit to it once you test it....or not test it at all if it looks textbook and there's good gear just below.
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pmyche
Mar 24, 2005, 7:17 AM
Post #39 of 66
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Semi-drift:
"What is the most common length for a 3/8 hand drilled bolt? 2-1/2 inches?"
Also, I noticed that there are constant refernces to old 1/4 inch bolts and how they suck. BUT, how good are they when new? Coudn't you put in a few 1/4 inchers while aiding to make things go faster?"
Depends on the manufacturer, but Rawl (Powers) and Fixe both offer 3.5" and 2.25" lengths in 3/8" dia. If the rock is sound granite, the shorties are plenty bomber. The longer ones take more time to drill proportionate to their added shear strength.
Usually, old quarter inchers are the ones to watch. They are usually pretty good when new (depending on rock and placement), can even hold falls when not new. (We used to whip on these things all the time without a thought; they were standard issue in some free climbing areas.) They'll absolutely save time if you have many to drill. A popular ladder construction is several quarter inch buttonheads (Rawl/Powers Drive bolts x 1.25") without hangers ("rivets") in a row followed by a bolt with a hanger (hopefully a fatter one, often not, depending on route/area), repeating to natural pro/belay. These bolts appear to last up to 30 or more years in good rock and favorable weather/moisture/salt conditions like Yosemite, but even there some look way jingy after a scant couple of decades or less.
Fish has thoughtfully provided specs on lots of stuff in their Tech Weenie pages, including bolts:
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html
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chaps
Apr 7, 2005, 4:26 PM
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This is just the thread I want to see!
I read a bunch of PTPP's posts and wondered what happened to him - he seemed to have good stuff to say. Specifically, he recommended the use of an adjustable fifi hook (made by Kong). It looks like a great way to rest and to second-step or top-step, but I can't find them anywhere! Does anybody know where I can order one? I've been searching the internet for weeks looking for the things...
Thanks for all the great tips! This is really useful stuff for somebody who's just getting into aid, like me.
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imnotclever
Apr 7, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Hey Chaps,
I've got an adjustable one that I let you play with if I can talk my wife to letting me go to BM for the gathering (if you're the same chaps). It's ok. I still have a regular one as well. If I were doing it again I'd get just the regular one and get the Yates adjustable daisies. Other people will have better opinions thought, I’m really just starting out as well.
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chaps
Apr 7, 2005, 5:00 PM
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Hey, imnotclever!
It's the same Chaps, indeed. I'm interested in trying out that fifi, and I'm planning on going to the Blue Mounds gathering. In thinking about this a little more, I suppose that a piece that you can actually clip is a little more secure than a fifi and I bet that adjustable daisies make such clipping about as convenient as a sliding fifi. Anyway - I'm interested in seeing the one you've got and playing around with it. Where'd you get it? I haven't found anybody in Minnesota (or anywhere else, for that matter) that has them.
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hosh
Apr 7, 2005, 6:00 PM
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This thread is super informative. I'm planning to do some aiding this weekend (if the weather holds) and I'm excited to try some of these tricks. Thanks for all the info that's been shared here!
Hosh.
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:45 PM
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:48 PM
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:49 PM
Post #46 of 66
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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skinner
Apr 9, 2005, 7:26 AM
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In reply to: Other things that have helped with my high step stability/comfort...Learning the 'rest step' (standing on one straight leg with the other one bent back at the knee like a flamingo in reverse with your weight puched into that tensioned aider).
along with a FiFi seems to allow me to happily plod along forever because I am not sapping my strength trying to stabilize or hold myself while making (or figuring out) placements.
As far as stepping high in your aiders, I found having a light rack certainly makes this easier, carry a minimal amount, and tag up gear as you need it.
In reply to: [olive] "send up the ultra-light/ plutonium-powered bolt gun"[/olive] |
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karlbaba
Apr 9, 2005, 11:20 AM
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Many folks waste time aid climbing in the following ways
1. They pause and look for the next placement while low in their aiders. Always climb the aiders quickly until you are at least as high as you can get comfortably before you even think about the next placement (although being aware of the general nature of the crack ahead helps ration the gear)
2. They futz around trying to get the absolute best placement instead of placing what works and getting on with it. Place something without wasting time. If it's obviously good, jump on it. If it's questionable, test it. If it holds, don't delay.
3. Worrying and stressing make you unconsciously stall. Don't stall, just do it.
4. Some folks have inefficient systems and have to constantly figure and readjust everything. Get a groove and execute the system like clockwork.
4. Folks also putter and waste time at the belays. Learn a system and execute the system like clockwork.
I'm a big fan of Yates adjustables
Just some thoughts
karl
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skinner
Apr 9, 2005, 2:09 PM
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Little footnote here:
On the subject of Aiding/Bigwalls.. Check out karlbaba's Photo's
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=karlbaba&mode=2
:shock:
a couple of those babies would sure look nice hanging on my wall!
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akclimber
Apr 12, 2005, 6:55 AM
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In reply to: Many folks waste time aid climbing in the following ways 1. They pause and look for the next placement while low in their aiders. Always climb the aiders quickly until you are at least as high as you can get comfortably before you even think about the next placement (although being aware of the general nature of the crack ahead helps ration the gear) 2. They futz around trying to get the absolute best placement instead of placing what works and getting on with it. Place something without wasting time. If it's obviously good, jump on it. If it's questionable, test it. If it holds, don't delay. 3. Worrying and stressing make you unconsciously stall. Don't stall, just do it. 4. Some folks have inefficient systems and have to constantly figure and readjust everything. Get a groove and execute the system like clockwork. 4. Folks also putter and waste time at the belays. Learn a system and execute the system like clockwork. I'm a big fan of Yates adjustables Just some thoughts karl
Thanks, good points everyone. I am working on becoming more efficient Karl. Anything else to add?
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