|
|
|
|
viacontinuum
Apr 7, 2005, 11:18 PM
Post #26 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2005
Posts: 38
|
i think we missed a few small calculations for the fall length...
first, maybe the climber's knot tightened a little; that adds at least another 1/2-inch. i mean, come on...
second, did anybody measure the humidity/air pressure in there? that affects a rope's stretch somewhere near 5/16's of an inch.
third, i bet all the webbing between the 'biners stetched a bit, so we have to lump on an extra, like... 1/32-inch. it adds up guys, seriously...
fourth, you guys totally forgot about harness stretch... suppose he was using one of those rock empire gym harnesses you see everywhere (well, i see them everywhere). i think those have a fall-stretch-rating of about 3/64's of an inch, not to mention if it slid up his waist at all, which means we're talking about more like 7/64's of an inch.
oh and fifth, don't the belayer's harness as well, so double that last calculation.
which now brings us to a fall length of... well, it'll be roughly, um... *sigh*
suffice it to say that he more than 'tapped the ground a little'.
i bet the rubber on his shoes underwent no less than 3/8's of an inch of compression. stress like that can seriously affect the lacing system of any shoe (assuming he was wearing lace-ups), so i'd recommend investing in new laces, if not new shoes altogether. if he was wearing velcros, well, count yourselves lucky... very lucky
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 7, 2005, 11:24 PM
Post #27 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: Just out of curiosity, how far back from the wall were you standing as you were belaying? I know trying to do the math with out seeing the wall/clip/climber is a bit futile, but I cant really come up with how the climber could have fallen more than ~15' without extra slack coming from somewhere. Having done it myself before, I will give you an example of why I am asking: We will assume I am standing 8' away from the wall belaying and the distance from the ground to my belay device is 3'. The climber, who is heavier than myself, falls, I get pulled toward the wall. If I get pulled all the way back to the wall, and the first bolt is say 8' off the ground, then the climber gets (slowly, because I am hopefully resisting the pull) sqrt((5'x5')+(8'x8'))-5'=4.4' of extra slack! (the 5' in that equation is the distance from my belay device to the first bolt). I think you did a fine job protecting your climber. Like I said, I have done it a number of times myself (no, its not recommended, but it is better than him cratering). If you are worried about this happening again though, keep in mind the further you are away from the wall, not anchored, the more extra slack the climber is ultimately going to get as you are pulled forward.
Thanks for the input.
As always, I was standing under and slightly to the side of the first clip. As you stated, I also see people standing 15 feet out from the wall. Scary. We all know the situation.
Anyways, the climbers waist was probably 20-25 feet up, the last clip was a little below his feet, and he pulled slack to clip above his head. So lets see, I would guess he had about 28-34 feet of rope between the two of us (more than the length of the climb to this point because he was clipping above his head and he probably just took too much as noobs often do), his last clip was about 15-20 feet up, so we are looking at around 10-15 feet of slack, maybe more.
As the case turned out, he ended up in the gray area of decking and 'tapping'. Now that I think about it more, he probably had another big loop of slack between his hand trying to clip and the tie in point. As I did get some slack in between the time he dropped the rope and chucked.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Apr 7, 2005, 11:33 PM
Post #28 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: Now that I think about it more, he probably had another big loop of slack between his hand trying to clip and the tie in point.
Possibly, but even if he hadn't pulled any more than he absolutely had to to clip, you still would have gotten about 6' of loose rope in you lap as soon as he dropped the rope.
If his last clip was 15-20' up, then he was pretty much guarenteed to 'touch' the ground no matter what you did. You were standing in the best spot possible, and by taking those steps back when you realised he was falling probably did save him from hitting any harder.
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 8, 2005, 12:01 AM
Post #29 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: In reply to: Now that I think about it more, he probably had another big loop of slack between his hand trying to clip and the tie in point. Possibly, but even if he hadn't pulled any more than he absolutely had to to clip, you still would have gotten about 6' of loose rope in you lap as soon as he dropped the rope. If his last clip was 15-20' up, then he was pretty much guarenteed to 'touch' the ground no matter what you did. You were standing in the best spot possible, and by taking those steps back when you realised he was falling probably did save him from hitting any harder.
I got probably around 15 feet of loose slack in my lap when he released the rope. Climber waist is 5 feet above bolt, he grabs rope and reaches above his head with it, adding another 10 feet (up to the bolt and back to the tie in point).
And by the way, sorry about the 10C comment saying 'only'. My gym is soft!
|
|
|
|
|
ctardi
Apr 8, 2005, 12:13 AM
Post #30 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2004
Posts: 1278
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Now that I think about it more, he probably had another big loop of slack between his hand trying to clip and the tie in point. Possibly, but even if he hadn't pulled any more than he absolutely had to to clip, you still would have gotten about 6' of loose rope in you lap as soon as he dropped the rope. If his last clip was 15-20' up, then he was pretty much guarenteed to 'touch' the ground no matter what you did. You were standing in the best spot possible, and by taking those steps back when you realised he was falling probably did save him from hitting any harder. I got probably around 15 feet of loose slack in my lap when he released the rope. Climber waist is 5 feet above bolt, he grabs rope and reaches above his head with it, adding another 10 feet (up to the bolt and back to the tie in point). And by the way, sorry about the 10C comment saying 'only'. My gym is soft! |
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 12:19 AM
Post #31 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: I got probably around 15 feet of loose slack in my lap when he released the rope. Climber waist is 5 feet above bolt, he grabs rope and reaches above his head with it, adding another 10 feet (up to the bolt and back to the tie in point).
ah, I was figuring 11' bolt->hand->harness minus 5' bolt->harness (after he let go). So, according to my calculations (which may be wildly wrong), if you ended up with closer to 15' in your lap, yes, he had way more rope pulled out than he needed to clip.
|
|
|
|
|
sinshan
Apr 8, 2005, 12:32 AM
Post #32 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 93
|
I didn't know this would be such an entertaining thread! Thanks to all the math comics, that was hilarious.
On a different note - - one of my pet peeves is when people who clip take out tons of unnecessary slack, for the very reason pointed out by the original post. The easiest solution to this problem? Don't take out tons of slack. Don't clip when you're in a nasty stance - - it's better to climb an extra foot or two and be in a stronger stance and clip from there, rather then clip from lower and take out tons of slack and risk a bigger fall.
clip confident! lots of slack + freaked out = bad.
(my math equation)
|
|
|
|
|
ctardi
Apr 8, 2005, 12:39 AM
Post #33 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2004
Posts: 1278
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Now that I think about it more, he probably had another big loop of slack between his hand trying to clip and the tie in point. Possibly, but even if he hadn't pulled any more than he absolutely had to to clip, you still would have gotten about 6' of loose rope in you lap as soon as he dropped the rope. If his last clip was 15-20' up, then he was pretty much guarenteed to 'touch' the ground no matter what you did. You were standing in the best spot possible, and by taking those steps back when you realised he was falling probably did save him from hitting any harder. I got probably around 15 feet of loose slack in my lap when he released the rope. Climber waist is 5 feet above bolt, he grabs rope and reaches above his head with it, adding another 10 feet (up to the bolt and back to the tie in point). And by the way, sorry about the 10C comment saying 'only'. My gym is soft!
Well, not to be stuck up, but I think I am the closest to what actually happened (yay physics/math).
The important thing is nobody got hurt, the belayer did the right thing by taking a few steps back, otherwise the partner would have been going alot faster downwords.
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 8, 2005, 12:54 AM
Post #35 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: Well, not to be stuck up, but I think I am the closest to what actually happened (yay physics/math).
What about me? :P
Actually, I think you are closer.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 1:18 AM
Post #36 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: In reply to: I didn't know this would be such an entertaining thread! Thanks to all the math comics, that was hilarious. *clip* We arn't joking...we enjoy a mental workout every now and then. :shock:
....well, at least one that doesn't involve if, while and for conditions/loops :wink: .
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Apr 8, 2005, 7:26 AM
Post #37 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
Don't know if you ignored it or didn't read it. How big of a loop of slack did you have out as a belayer (between your belay device and the wall)? I am just curious.
|
|
|
|
|
natrajk
Apr 8, 2005, 9:51 AM
Post #38 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 54
|
I didn't bother to read through all the math posts so maybe someone has already said this :oops:
I you fall while trying to clip ( by that I mean that you have pulled enough rope make the clip). The length you will fall is:
"2 * the distance between the last bolt and the bolt you are trying to clip + the amount of extra slack in the system."
It doesn't matter how high above the last bolt you are ( but if you have your tie-in point below the last bolt, the formula is incorrect).
If you don't believe this, search the forum, I know there has been discussions about it before.
Natrajk
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 8, 2005, 3:54 PM
Post #39 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
Hey all,
I might have figured out where some of the confusion has come up with all the math.
Remember, this is an arch. For every foot you go up, you are going out a foot. When falling, you are not going to fall the distance you climbed and hit the floor. The distance to the floor is less.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 8, 2005, 4:09 PM
Post #40 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: Don't know if you ignored it or didn't read it. How big of a loop of slack did you have out as a belayer (between your belay device and the wall)? I am just curious.
Until my partner started pulling slack for the clip, I was standing directly under the first clip with very little extra slack (maybe a foot). When my partner started pulling for the clip, he got probably 15 feet + of slack. From his tie in,up to the clipping hand, down to his last bolt. When he went, as this is an arch, the floor is only probably 18-20 feet down. Add some rope strech, me going up a bit.........
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 8, 2005, 4:18 PM
Post #41 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
How about this little wrinkle for you math mavens:
He was probably not standing at his full height while climbing. He was on a lead arch, which would suggest that he was bunched up somewhat, his body being on a different plane than strictly vertical.
Back to the drawing board! :P
|
|
|
|
|
rockhound71
Apr 8, 2005, 4:38 PM
Post #42 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2002
Posts: 225
|
Maybe better advice would be, as the climber don't clip unless you feel solid enough to do so. Math be damned! :wink:
Casey
_____________________
A coward turns away, but a brave man's choice is danger.--Euripides
|
|
|
|
|
ctardi
Apr 8, 2005, 9:15 PM
Post #43 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2004
Posts: 1278
|
12354
|
|
|
|
|
mfd70
Apr 8, 2005, 10:12 PM
Post #44 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2005
Posts: 1
|
Apologies if this has been covered in previous replies, but I fell off in a similar manner a few weeks back.
What happened was I was on the easier of the two routes on the wall, I'd just led the harder one OK, then was one clip from the lower off when my left hand slipped from the hold and I fell and was suspended about 6ft off the floor from about 40ft up.
The point is I was trying to clip with my right hand above my head with a lot of slack out, if I'd have made the next move, the clip would have been just below waist level, but the rope tight, hence, less of a fall, also, by then I probably wouldn't have slipped off.
Still, I haven't led that route again, although I have led the harder one several times since, isn't that weird ?
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 10:52 PM
Post #45 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: Maybe better advice would be, as the climber don't clip unless you feel solid enough to do so. Math be damned! :wink:
couldn't agree more (except the 'math be damnded' part. Math is fun!! ) :D
|
|
|
|
|
pylonhead
Apr 10, 2005, 4:25 AM
Post #46 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2004
Posts: 283
|
The holds on this route wouldn't happen to be purple, would they?
|
|
|
|
|
jdouble
Apr 14, 2005, 4:40 PM
Post #47 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 564
|
In reply to: The holds on this route wouldn't happen to be purple, would they?
Ha! We have a detective amongst us.............
You are correct sir.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Apr 20, 2005, 1:36 AM
Post #48 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
Last time I took similar fall I was at the top of climb ( gym ) in the tower 60 ft. high and my arm was so tired that when I went for a last clip with all the slack it just let go ( my arm ) and I peeled off and fall for about 30 ft. My belayer was lighter then me by about 55 ibs.
As for too much rope in the system if you belaying with a Gri Gri you can take in rope ( use both hands to take the rope ) as your partner is falling. I tried this and she didn't hit the ground. She was only at second clip, but was trying to clip a third one above her head.
Be carefull and pay attention is what I would suggest for other climbers/belayers.
And, you did an asome job.
|
|
|
|
|
glyrocks
Apr 20, 2005, 2:25 AM
Post #49 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 614
|
I didn't read all the other pages so I don't know if someone else mentioned it, and I know this was an indoor gym, but double ropes can help when making hard clips- be it sport, ice, or trad. With a compentent belayer, one rope is kept 'tight' while the other rope is given slack. Depends on the particular stance of course, but this could reduce the fall length significantly. Just a thought for someone who might be thinking of ways to avoid this in the real world... Plus, I'm all about doubles.
|
|
|
|
|
sixleggedinsect
Apr 27, 2005, 1:33 PM
Post #50 of 50
(5839 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 385
|
In reply to: I saw a guy a couple weeks ago, a new leader, who would actually pull up slack, decide he didn't like his stance, and make a move with the loop of slack in his hands! :shock:
ha! sounds like me at the top of every pitch ive ever done with massive rope drag..
|
|
|
|
|
|
