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johnhenry
Apr 10, 2002, 9:37 AM
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Does anyone use a web-o-lette made simply from a length of (non-spectra) webbing tied with overhand knots on each end?
I see no reason why this would'nt work fine and it would be nice to have a 5/8 or one inch web-o-lette fot wall climbing.
Interested in your thoughts...
!!!!EDIT!!!
******I have been researching this and the overhand knot has been shown to have gradual slippage in webbing. DO NOT USE IT TO TIE YOUR OWN WEB-O-LETTE!!!
Buy a web-o-lette instead.
See:
http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/documents/abstract.pdf
John
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-07-05 21:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-07-05 21:19 ]
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-07-05 21:20 ]
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socialclimber
Apr 10, 2002, 10:08 AM
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I made a 6m x 25mm webolette. I used water knots and I think I allowed 500mm each end for tying the eye. I wouldn't leave home without it.
[ This Message was edited by: socialclimber on 2002-04-10 03:26 ]
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rrrADAM
Apr 10, 2002, 11:39 AM
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He's talking about not making a continuous loop.
I do the same thing, they work great.
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kyhangdog
Apr 10, 2002, 12:04 PM
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The Webolette has only three points for protection. I wonder if you could make a super-long webolette to allow for another loop for protection. I guess you're getting into codellette territory though. Bigger knot.
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rrrADAM
Apr 10, 2002, 12:11 PM
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Any o-lette can acomodate more points if it's just made longer.
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krustyklimber
Apr 10, 2002, 9:57 PM
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Yes, you can tie your own web-o-lettes. You can tie them out of webbing or you can use cord (tied with a figure of eight).
In the "olden days", and by ice climbers, these are known as "rabbit runners", and have many more uses than you'd first think.
I have used them to sling large trees or boulders, as a really long runner on zig zagging adventure routes, as part of a toprope set-up, and even tied alpine butterfly knots into it to make an "improvised aider".
Great idea, but it isn't new, no great idea is, it's only the materials that are new. I mean Di Vinci new "how" to build a hang glider, he just didn't have the "materials" to build one that would work.
Jeff
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socialclimber
Apr 11, 2002, 8:52 AM
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rrradam, I know what a webolette is. I used water knots for the eyes . To be totally accurate, I guess they would be a re-woven overhand knots.
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rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 12:38 PM
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Why reweave ??? Why not just tie an overhand, if you're not opting for the 8 ??? When you're done, it's the same knot.
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socialclimber
Apr 12, 2002, 7:36 AM
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Damn if you aren't right rrradam it's pretty much the same knot. Maybe it finishes a bit nicer when it's re-woven. Anyway, I did it like that cause I could. I spent 13 years working with knots in my occupation and I really love them.
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rrrADAM
Apr 12, 2002, 10:12 AM
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Are you a boatswain's mate ???
Or maybe a divorce lawyer ???
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socialclimber
Apr 13, 2002, 9:55 AM
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Neither rrradam, I worked in a pretzel factory for quite a while.
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socialclimber
Apr 13, 2002, 9:58 AM
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What do you mean you don't belive me??
Ok, ok, I was a deep sea fisherman.
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codey
Apr 13, 2002, 10:41 AM
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Is there any relevance?
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johnhenry
Jul 6, 2002, 4:32 AM
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Gotta move this to the top
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socialclimber
Jul 6, 2002, 9:48 AM
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Any time you tie webbing you must accept the knots will slip a bit. Pull the knots tight when you tie them, leave a good tail on the knot and keep an eye on it. Re-tie the knot if the tail gets a bit short. no different to any other piece of climbing gear: Check, check again and re-check. My climbing partiner stiches the tail to the standing part. You don't have to go nuts with the thread, just repeat the stich a few times through the same point. He uses dental floss. Yes, you read right. because it's cheap and durable. so far it's doing a great job.
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stevematthys
Jul 6, 2002, 8:38 PM
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yea, if you burn the dental floss after you stich it it becomes pretty strong
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beyond_gravity
Jul 6, 2002, 9:13 PM
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could you just get a 10 foot piece of webbing, then clove hitch each end and add half a double fishermen's knot for backup?
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sagarmatha
Jul 7, 2002, 11:30 PM
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For my cordelette (7mm, 6m long), I use a triple fisherman. No problem as long as you regularly check the ends through the knot.
Cheers
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murf
Jul 8, 2002, 2:53 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, self made web-o-lettes/rabbit runners are knot full strength!! See the following for more:
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/webbing.html
Basically, these products break at the knot.
Murf
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elvislegs
Jul 8, 2002, 3:20 PM
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Not full strength if not configured in a continuous loop, right?.
In a looped configuration the article seemed to say that these were fine. This is the best way I think. I just recently made a HUGE one for spaced out placements.
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johnhenry
Jul 9, 2002, 3:36 AM
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Boy, I have been pouring over the technical data for both this topic and knots used to join two ropes together. They are of course greatly related.
Here are what I see to be the bottom line in most instances:
1.) use a long tail, probably longer than you would think.
2.)understand that it is the jerky, static-ee loading that causes the most slippage
3.) keep up with the current news. What was once standard becomes proven unsafe.
The above debate has been waivering between those who are speaking about a continuous loop cord-o-lette or web-o-lette and a single strand-type such as a sewn web-o-lette.
My origonal question pertained to the latter as it is much more compact.
It is clear that cord-o-lettes made with proper diameter cord and tied with a double or triple fisherman's knot are fine.
I probably will not use my single strand (non-looped) web-o-lette, with overhand knots tied on each end. If I was to use it again, I would leave about six inches of tail for each knot.
Sewn web-o-lettes are, in my opinion, greatly superior to the traditional cord-o-lette.
Be careful
John
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-07-08 20:41 ]
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krustyklimber
Jul 9, 2002, 4:11 AM
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I went out and got my come-along and cranked down on a rabbit runner made of 1 inch webbing tied at one end with an overhand knot and one with a figure of eight. I hooked this up between two trees and cranked until I thought I would break either the webbing or the trees (I ran out of stretch or I would've broken it to see where it actually failed, maybe, I was scared ) Neither knot failed or slipped significantly, the figure of 8 was easy to untie, the overhand was almost impossible to untie!
I would and will continue to use these rabbit runners tied with overhand knots, and am not afraid to use tied circular runners as well. These do need periodic inspection, as does all your gear, but in 25yrs of climbing this has never created a problem for me.
And I think your warning is unfounded.
Jeff
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murf
Jul 9, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Krusty,
I think you need to look and *read* the links and the posts given. Note #2 in John's post above. The fact is that testing by qualified individuals have shown that the knots in rabbit runners weaken the webbing/cord. Whether the weakening is within *your* acceptable limit, is another issue all together. The fact is that testing has been done with proper equipment, your tree cranking aside.
As for your mentions of tied runners, I'm not sure of the relevance. I didn't read anything in this thread that mentioned not using them, although recent testing that I've seen shows the slippage of the water knot occurs much faster than previously thought, and they should be checked before each use ( once a day-ish ), as you mentioned.
As with everything YMMV, but I don't use homemade web-o-lettes/rabbit runners.
Murf
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socialclimber
Jul 10, 2002, 1:33 PM
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murf, Your point about webolette being weakest at the knot is correct, just as your ropes weakest point is at the knot. The fact that knots slip should hardly be relevant because you should be checking the condition of your webbing constantly anyway.
As you say, it comes down to personal preference.I use both tied runners and webolette and feel completly comfortable with them. beond_gravity, I'm not quite sure how you would tie a runner with clove hitches but for joining webbing the Water knot, also known as the Tape knot is the only way to go It will stress the tape less and will slip less than anything else. for a runner made of rope/cord, use a fishermans knot. Double, triple, what ever your preference.
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