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healyje
May 23, 2005, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: Personally, I am the ONLY climber I know of who has ever removed hangars, backed the bolts deeper into the rock and puttyed over the holes so that no sign of the previous bolt could be seen. As far as I know not one of the self rightous-in-your-face-pissed-as-hell LNT crowd actually puts their money where their very big mouths are in this respect.
When I remove, replace, or move a bolted belay I do the same...
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tradmanclimbs
May 23, 2005, 2:54 AM
Post #27 of 35
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One thing that these forums have taught me is that just because you are a great climber does NOT exempt you from being an extreme A hole :twisted:
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fluxus
May 23, 2005, 6:53 PM
Post #28 of 35
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In reply to: When I remove, replace, or move a bolted belay I do the same...
cool.
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fluxus
May 23, 2005, 7:06 PM
Post #29 of 35
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In reply to: Yes indeed "poop" I suppose should have been funny 8^) . If you lived in SLC and climbed at the Hellgate you may have climbed some routes I did that were almost chopped by one of America's finest alpinists, so I get the frustration...In fact he did remove the first bolt on a route and the anchors on a climb.... G
well, maybe poop isn't that funny except to my inner 12 year old. I'm glad that your route was not fully chopped. Want to tell us the route and the name of the bolt mover? I understand if you don't.
Its amazing to me that the frustration and expereinces of nearly 20 years ago can still have such an impact on me today. Its also amazing that the old debate still takes the form of a debate, and that the same tired old ideas are still being tossed about. Will climbing ever grow a memory? I wonder, there is a history section on RC.COM isn't there? maybe some of us should get together and write something about the history and philosophy of bolting and its opposition. It could be a group effort from people on both sides of the issue as long as everyone was willing to play nice. Maybe this already exists and I just have not seen it.
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polarwid
May 23, 2005, 7:37 PM
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polarwid moved this thread from US - East Coast to Regional Discussions.
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jstan
May 24, 2005, 1:19 AM
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I would like to pick-up on Fluxus' post just above:
In 2000 or thereabouts we used to hear of the new stock market paradigm. All the old rules were out the window. Even as this was being said the market was in a sharp decline that will be affecting each of us throughout the remainder of our lives. Whether you were in the market or not, what you used to have - now you don't. If you don't know this - read a newspaper. Any newspaper. A few weeks ago I got a call from a young lady in India asking if she could plan my finances for me(what there is of them). Now that is a new, and scary, paradigm. On this thread we hear the internet is a new paradigm and here we don't have to follow the age-old dictum of civility in public discourse. The internet is a medium whose purpose is amusement. OK, I can live with that. Mind you I think what is really happening is that we all are so frustrated by such things as our inability to keep the jobs from going overseas, that we log on to the internet to get some kind of feeling of power, illusory as it may be. Computers are great for this. It does what you tell it to do. As to the effectiveness of this approach I will quote a good friend from long ago, "I hear a lot of chopping but I don't see any chips flying." Also on this thread I see many thoughtful people who are not primarily amusing themselves. That is not so cool. The internet could potentially be an incredibly powerful tool for allowing people to understand the viewpoints of others, as suggested by the previous post. This site has convinced me this is what is needed to solve current disputes.
A modest suggestion: Let's suppose I start a thread. If I am amusing myself (cool) I put (A) as the first characters in the thread name. That thread will not be managed except as required by law. If for some reason I am serious, I put (S) as the first characters in the thread name. Everyone knows up-front (S) threads will be modified as needed to maintain civil public discourse, starting with the initial post itself. Every S post will be reviewed by the moderator before it appears on the net. There will be a delay. If you don't want to be reviewed, post an (A). If you want some good back-up editing help in attacking a serious problem go for (S). Moderators are human, though I sometimes wonder if their accepting the task does not indicate a tendency toward masochism. If you don't understand the way you were edited in an (S) post, simple, re-post it in an (A) thread. I don't want to use the filter. Even people who like to feel they are good at ruffling feathers, will one day need some serious help. When that happens they need to be able to find it.
As to the belief that the humor in these threads is obvious, why is it you routinely find such humor later being explained?
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cintune
May 24, 2005, 1:33 AM
Post #32 of 35
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I think a system like that would turn into a logistical nighmare for anyone who tried to administer it. It presupposes that everyone is going to play by the rules when there's no way to enforce them. Any prankster who wants to be provocative can start by posting an S thread under an A heading, then just sit back to watch the chaos unfold. And climbers are often pranksters; it's a vibrant aspect of the tradition.
In reply to: As to the belief that the humor in these threads is obvious, why is it you routinely find such humor later being explained?
Sarcasm is notoriously easy to misinterpret online. And then there's this:
http://www.apa.org/releases/sarcasm.html
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jstan
May 24, 2005, 4:16 AM
Post #33 of 35
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cintune:
Very very nice! You are accusing me of having had a prefrontal labotomy and have delivered it in a very funny way. I don’t know when I have read a funnier post. Now that is an (A) that definitely should go into an (S). Outstanding! The moderators would never catch it. I hope they would not anyway. Have you read up on Ben Franklin? I think you two have a lot in common.
Maybe sometime you could explain the chaos and (S) into (A) to me. I don’t follow. I must be slow today. With the move you have just pulled off I would also really like to hear your feelings as to the mess we all are in. I’ll send you a PM.
Nice name you’ve got there. Is it the guitar you play? I have always thought guitar players have a great advantage in climbing.
John
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cintune
May 24, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Thanks, I'm flattered, but I certainly didn't mean any offense, it's just another example of the problem with online communication. Here we all are, ensconced in the icy blue glow of our monitors, attempting to converse but without any of the normal interpersonal cues that lend real conversations their context. Sort of like sitting at a bar next to some stranger who suddenly decides he doesn't like our haircut or something and decides to settle it right there. People on this thread seem to be legitimately irritated by the depredations of Ken the bolt-chopper, and all that adrenaline ends up transformed into terroristic invective that solves nothing, just an excuse to rehash an old grudge. Whether you consider it vandalism or not, I think the only real solution would be to install 24-hour video surveillance cameras at all the crags in question. Not very practical, I know, but the only way to go if it's that important. After this matter is settled, we can move on to effecting a lasting peace in Middle East and curing cancer.
I wish I played guitar, but never got around to learning more than a few power chords. Just a longtime Who fan.
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jstan
May 24, 2005, 9:09 PM
Post #35 of 35
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Cintune:
No offense at all. I knew you did not mean to offend. It would not have fit in such a perfect post. I, for one, would like to hear whatever you have to say.
To whomever is interested:
I have been fortunate beyond measure. Certainly beyond anything I deserved. I was in a room once when the people there decided to solve a problem. We have had the current problem for 50 years now. Reading these threads it is obvious everyone, whatever their persuasion, is tired of it. Very tired of it. This is new. Thanks to these computers and RC.com, everyone can see it. It is coming. Don’t miss your chance to be in that room when it happens. You would think getting a chance to climb on the rock with good friends is all anyone could hope to ask of climbing. No. Don’t sell yourself short. Thirty years ago I thought I would today be savoring the moment I got my last “Thank god it is all over” hold. No, I don’t even recall it. I savor the moment in that room when I realized the will and determination there was threatening to displace the very air. I had trouble breathing. I still savor the day we were building a trail. A good friend and I had to roll a rock weighing perhaps a ton – up hill. We threw all caution to the winds. The two of us got down in the dirt and put our shoulders to the rock. If we did not get help we would know the determination had gone and all had been for nought. Racks began hitting the ground, unbidden, for a hundred feet both up and down the carriage road. Within 15 seconds another person could not have found a part of that rock to touch. It began to move ponderously up into the air. The determination and will was still there strong as ever. It would be there for years to come. It is still there. My chance to be present and see it, that was my last thank god hold.
If I still climbed in the East and at Mormon Hollow I would urge RC.com to return this thread to East Coast discussions. Problems are solved by people, in each area. I would talk to everyone I could, of all persuasions, to see if we feel it is time to do something. If it is I would post saying “If you feel the time has come, we should get together at the Hollow next Saturday. And if you plan to be there drop me a PM. I would suggest, on no authority, that we relive absolutely nothing from the past. The future is enough to worry about. We only hear people say what each thinks the future should be like. Out of that meeting an action group will form powered by determination and a raft of excellent ideas. A critical task that has to be completed as soon as possible is to decide how to integrate conservation efforts by climbers with the conservation work being done by those responsible for the land. You are partners.
My best,
J
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