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nonick
Aug 13, 2003, 11:09 AM
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Hi,
As someone who lives in a tropical and warm country I have plenty of experience with dehydration.
For me dehydration usually starts with severe muscle cramps. Best way to avoid it is to drink plenty of water (usually 5-6 Lts in my case) and have some sports drinks, if you are prone to cramps like I am.
Basically drink plenty of water, try to stay in the shade as much as possible. If you get cramps, a little rest, lots of water with a little salt ( a pinch) will help you get over it pretty soon.
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medic3
Aug 13, 2003, 11:28 AM
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overhydration is a rare event, the vast majority of people never even come close. use some common sense. the problem with overhydration is hyponatremia, a potentially life threatening complication, often seen in marathon runners, women primarily who are middle of the pack or greater than 4 hrs of running....certain medications can increase the risk, some antidepressents, blood pressure meds and nsaids, you know, the motrin we all chomp on? dress for the weather, drink plenty of fluids and consume carbs, go climb.....
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baldy
Aug 13, 2003, 11:39 AM
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The first wall I did (washington column) was by luck in the middle of a september heat wave and a gallon a day of water was not enough, or even adequate. At the top and trying to come down we were dry retching from heat exhaustion, we wern't sweating despite 90-100 heat and we were very very weak. Actually exactly like being really drunk and losing all cordination, walking, tieing knots etc. Not the best thing on a wall!
As for the rest of the discussion, ask some endurance athletes. Its often personal how your body reacts. I work best on watered down sports drinks / juice / cordial. Other people can only stomache water and eat food / bars at the same times. Others have a sweet drink and plain water. Usually your body lose's more water than salt (as a percentage) so the salt concentration goes up in blood when you're sweating a lot. You will need salt at some time, but do you have to have it while your exercising?
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reno
Aug 13, 2003, 12:59 PM
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In reply to: Sorry Reno, it's better to have too much salt then to little. I was in the Military and we were forced to put our salt packets, in our MRE's, on our meals. If you know anything about MRE's there is more sodium in them then you could imagine. With the amount of water you need to drink to stay hydrated in real heat you need to over due the salt to make sure you don't flush the system of electrolytes.
I didn't say that it was better to have too little rather than too much. Go back and re-read my post. What I did say was that the majority of people get adequate salt intake simply from eating food. Try it some day... carry a pen and paper, and write down the sodium content of the food you eat. Don't forget drinks, too. At the end of a day, total it all up.
By the way, too much salt (hyper-natremia) will kill you faster than too little (hypo-natremia.) Too much potassium (hyperkalemia) will kill faster than either of these. So, yes, too much electrolytes is most definately lethal.
MRE's have extra salt added because the taste of salt induces thirst. From a physiology standpoint, "water follows salts." Wherever the salts go, the water will follow. Hence the beneficial aspects of some diuretic medications: They prohibit the reabsorbtion of salts (primarily sodium) in the kidneys, causing the salts to be excreted in the urine. The water follows, and you get a diuresis effect (removal of water.) Conversely, if you increase the intake of salt, you get thirsty, and you'll want to consume water to follow the salt. That is the rationale behind it.
Assuming you are a healthy individual who does not have a disease that predisposes you to electrolyte imbalance (kidney, liver, pancreatic, adrenal, or muscle disease, for example) "electrolyte imbalance" will not be a "major" concern. You'd need to sweat heavily and have a *SERIOUSLY* limited food intake for several days before you'd see the effects.
It's something to be aware of, but it's not the big issue everyone makes it out to be. Staying hydrated is really quite simple: Drink water.
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longalong
Aug 13, 2003, 1:08 PM
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In reply to: About the too little water vs too much, drinking too little in hot weather can lead to heat stroke, people have died from heat stroke, have many people died from drinking too much water?
I know two and they weren't marathon runners.
On hyponatremia - "Recognizing this condition is a challenge because the symptoms resemble those of heat stroke or heat exhaustion. Early symptoms include confusion, nausea, fatigue, muscle cramps, and weakness.
The big difference between heat stroke and exhaustion and over-hydration is that the latter doesn’t cause the victim’s temperature to rise. Because over-hydration can be deadly, the final diagnosis must be made at a medical facility where the victim can be properly treated."
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maf
Aug 13, 2003, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: Ok, I am probably in the minority with Gatorade, and all the other highly pushed commercial drinks out there.
I didn't say to DRINK gatorade, I said to visit the web site--as an entry point to more reliable information than is found in this thread. I don't regularly drink it either--I make up my own mix for a fraction of the cost of commercial drinks. But there are much better commerical alternatives to the gator/powerade 'sports' drinks, just like there are much better products than GU or Powerbars. Use what works for you.
MAF
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sixter
Aug 13, 2003, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ok, I am probably in the minority with Gatorade, and all the other highly pushed commercial drinks out there.
I didn't say to DRINK gatorade, I said to visit the web site--as an entry point to more reliable information than is found in this thread. I don't regularly drink it either--I make up my own mix for a fraction of the cost of commercial drinks. But there are much better commerical alternatives to the gator/powerade 'sports' drinks, just like there are much better products than GU or Powerbars. Use what works for you.
MAF
I am sorry I offended you, I only quoted you to say "besides the gatorade website, check out this one." I didn't mean to imply you drank it, or promoting it, but I know there are many people that do. One of the problems with the commercial sports drinks marketed to the public, is that much of the formulation is due to the need to have a product the public will like, such as the sweetness factor, instead of basing it solely on the body's needs durring exertion.
The people that are saying the over hydration is less of an issue, I have a hypothetical situation for you to think about. Please correct me if my viewpoint is wrong. A guy goes climbing on a hot day, spends the day on a challenging multi-pitch climb. He drinks water, but nowhere near the levels he is losing. This reduces the volume of his blood. He doesn't eat much, if at all. When he finishes the climb, he is fairly dehydrated, but not enough to be a serious health issue. When he gets back to the car he starts downing large ammounts of plain water. This raises the volume of his blood, but there is a problem, it reduces the concentration of electrolytes in his system. If he had been eating, then there probably wouldn't be an issue with drinking plain water, as he would have been restoring electrolytes. Is this why marathon runners have difficulty with over hydration, no food, and plain water? Is this why when you watch the Tour de France you see the feed stations, so that the riders can eat and keep energy and electrolyte levels up?
I used to race bicycles, and remember feeding areas on some courses I raced, but always carried what I needed with me, two bottles of water, and a powerbar or two. Never had problems with cramps or dehydration, only lactic acid buildup on long hills, and sprints. I don't have problems when climbing, or hiking, as I do the same, food and fluids.
I think my $0.02 turned into a $1.25
-Andreas
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jt512
Aug 13, 2003, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: One of the problems with the commercial sports drinks marketed to the public, is that much of the formulation is due to the need to have a product the public will like, such as the sweetness factor...
No, that is not a problem; that, in fact, is an advantage. There is a large body of research demonstrating that water is not sufficiently thirst-promoting to induce athletes to drink enough to maintain optimal hydration, and that the taste of well-formulated sports drinks promotes thirst and thus induces athletes to drink more and maintain better levels of hydration.
-Jay
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sixter
Aug 14, 2003, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: One of the problems with the commercial sports drinks marketed to the public, is that much of the formulation is due to the need to have a product the public will like, such as the sweetness factor... No, that is not a problem; that, in fact, is an advantage. There is a large body of research demonstrating that water is not sufficiently thirst-promoting to induce athletes to drink enough to maintain optimal hydration, and that the taste of well-formulated sports drinks promotes thirst and thus induces athletes to drink more and maintain better levels of hydration. -Jay
I do give that point. Water can be made more paletable by adding things like lemon, I personally use both Gookinaid, and water durring heavy physical activity. When I was racing bicycles I had to work to make drinking a habbit, and after that, reaching down for the bottle was just something I did without thinking no matter what I had in my bottles.
I have a question for you, Jay. You are evidently very knowlegeable. Which is better in a fluid replacement drink, glucose, or sucrose? I would have to vote for glucose, because, if I remember my bio correctly, glucose is the form of sugar that is used in cellular reactions. It is easily absorbed, but sucrose has to be converted before the body can use it. Is this true? Also, one of the arguments I have heard in favor of Gookinaid is that it's sodium to potassium ratio is closer to that of persperation, unlike Gatorade, and the others. Is that a good thing, or does it even matter? I know if the diet is balanced, then it doesn't really matter as much, am I correct? I don't want to believe, or spread erronious information. I truly would like to know more. Thanks.
-Andreas
PS, back on the real subject of this thread, no, I haven't suffered from serious dehydration, but have suffered cramps associated with not drinking enough fluids durring physical activity.
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jt512
Aug 14, 2003, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: Which is better in a fluid replacement drink, glucose, or sucrose? I would have to vote for glucose, because, if I remember my bio correctly, glucose is the form of sugar that is used in cellular reactions. It is easily absorbed, but sucrose has to be converted before the body can use it. Is this true?
As I noted above, sports drinks have to balance palatablility with what is purely physiologically ideal. That is why even legitimate sports drinks contain some fructose, in spite of evidence that it actually can hamper performance. Likewise, the mix of glucose and sucrose used in a good sports drink reflects taste as well as physiology. That said, if you ignore taste, then I think, surprisingly, that sucrose is absorbed more readily than glucose, in spite of the fact that it has to be broken down into glucose and fructose monosaccharides in the body. I'm thinking back to nutritional biochemistry classes taken 6 years ago, though. IIRC, sucrose is absorbed faster because it is actively transported from the intestinal lumen into intestinal cells and simultaneously broken down. Glucose, on the other hand is absorbed by diffusion, a slower process. So rate of absorption argues in favor of sucrose over glucose, but sucrose leaves you with a relatively useless fructose molecule as well as a useful glucose molecule. I doubt that the science of hydration is to the point that nutritionists can accurately predict on the basis of theory what mix of sugars is optimal -- there are just too many factors involved. Rather, they have to determine this experimentally.
In reply to: Also, one of the arguments I have heard in favor of Gookinaid is that it's sodium to potassium ratio is closer to that of persperation, unlike Gatorade, and the others. Is that a good thing...
I don't know for sure. The scientific literature I've seen stresses sodium. Potassium is hardly ever mentioned.
In reply to: ...or does it even matter? I know if the diet is balanced, then it doesn't really matter as much, am I correct?
The sodium serves to stimulate thirst, promote retention of fluids, and possibly to enhance the rate of fluid uptake. For prolonged exercise it is also important to replace sodium lost in sweat. If the diet is balanced and the duration of exercise is not too long, then the risk of hyponatremia is low; however, for prolonged intense exercise, there is a risk of hyponatremia for athletes even on balanced diets, so sodium in the sports drink also helps ensure maintenance of physiologic sodium levels.
-Jay
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papounet
Aug 27, 2003, 8:36 PM
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yet another sports drink thread...
not so long ago there was a thread "neat useful things to go climbing with.
" with was hijacked
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36229&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=91
here is the gist of my post:
=========
I found http://www.spinalhealth.net/hyponatremia.html much more informative with more details about the research sources indicated.
The clearest guideleines are coming from the International Marathon Medical Directors Association http://www.aims-association.org/guidelines_for_fluid_replacement.htm
(and i am going to adjust my 20k race drinking habits right away !!!!)
========
this last article is very clear on hydration/heat-strokes/ hyponatremia
regarding sipping rather than gulping down, this may have to do with gastric capacity and gastric emptying; your body can not absorb a lot of water fast, (out of the top of my head,25cl/10 min ??)
(have you ever run with water sloshing in your stomach ?, I did, it's awful)
plain water is emptied slower than iso-tonic drinks
whereas the 2 statements above are my understanding of the litterature,
the following 2 propositions are my own
while sodium is most important mineral, magnesium is very important for muscle activity, supplmenting magnesium may prevent cramps for some people (it does for me and one of my kid).
from bad experience, I would venture that over-cold water will take some time to get to proper temperature for absorption, a lot of cold water will not be pleasant.
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maf
Sep 4, 2003, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: ... I have a hypothetical situation for you to think about. Please correct me if my viewpoint is wrong.
-Andreas
Sound like you have it pretty much correct. The physiology of blood volume control is something I don't know about, though. Hyponatremia (more correctly dilutional hyponatremia) has finally come onto the radar screen and official recommendations for water/electrolyte intake are changing as a result. Most people can drink a bunch of pure water without worrying about electrolyte replacement and still function OK. But to maximize performance each person has to learn how their own body works and replace fluids, electrolytes, and fuel accordingly. I sweat a lot and function better with a higher electrolyte intake than many people. At the Western States 100 mile race they assume that you will drink 8 gallons of water--you can see where electrolyte dilution could occur if you only drank pure water. In alpine climbing the situation is less severe in most cases.
See
http://www.ultrunr.com/ for more opinions on hydration etc.
(BTW, the posts in this thread are getting better!)
maf
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herm
Sep 9, 2003, 12:08 AM
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eventually, u die :(
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dirtme
Sep 17, 2003, 9:05 PM
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I did the Rostrum last week and on the rap down I dropped my water bottle. Luckily I had a small bottle of gatorade and my partner had one nalgene of water and his bottle of gatorade. Regardless, after he finished the 10 OW pitch, one of his arms cramped up. On the next 11b overhanging hand pitch, at the crux, while I was trying to place some pro with my right hand, my left arm cramped up and I had to hang on the piece. I drank the rest of my gatorade on the pitch and then tried to go up again, my right arm then cramped up but I managed to flail my way to the anchors. It wasn't pretty. To think, it was actually a cool day. If it was hot, we'd probably have bailed.
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hollyg
Jun 24, 2005, 9:23 PM
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so if you get a bloodtest and your sodium and potassium levels are in the normal range...does that mean you are not dehydrated and lacking electrolytes?
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csgambill
Jun 24, 2005, 10:13 PM
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[quote="reno"][quote="tanner"]
Do *NOT* consume "extra" salt. Most probably, you get enough salt in your regular diet. Extra will do no good.
Save the Gatorade/Sportade, etc. for *after* the climbing.
quote]
Neither of these are true.
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bluenose
Jun 25, 2005, 4:16 PM
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If you want fast delivery go with a mix of maltodextrin and dextrose and add a touch of sodium.
I don't do this as it gives me a headache but lots do after an exercise session. Usually mixed with some protein powders and maybe flavouring.
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reno
Jun 26, 2005, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Do *NOT* consume "extra" salt. Most probably, you get enough salt in your regular diet. Extra will do no good. Save the Gatorade/Sportade, etc. for *after* the climbing. Neither of these are true.
Actually, both are true.
Want proof?
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jt512
Jun 26, 2005, 3:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Do *NOT* consume "extra" salt. Most probably, you get enough salt in your regular diet. Extra will do no good. Save the Gatorade/Sportade, etc. for *after* the climbing. Neither of these are true. Actually, both are true. Want proof?
Yes.
-Jay
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reno
Jun 26, 2005, 3:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Do *NOT* consume "extra" salt. Most probably, you get enough salt in your regular diet. Extra will do no good. Neither of these are true. Actually, both are true. Want proof? Yes.
OK, here's some light reading. Before you get too quick to discount the studies, Jay, remember that they are consensus studies done by experts in the field. So they're probably a little bit smart.
"Dietary Reference Intakes for Water, Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate" by the Panel on Dietary Reference Intakes for Electrolytes and Water, Standing Committee on the Scientific Evaluation of Dietary Reference Intakes (Institute of Medicine) says "Healthy 19- to 50-year-old adults should consume 1.5 grams of sodium and 2.3 grams of chloride each day -- or 3.8 grams of salt -- to replace the amount lost daily on average through sweat and to achieve a diet that provides sufficient amounts of other essential nutrients." They continue to say "Older individuals, African Americans, and people with chronic diseases including hypertension, diabetes, and kidney disease are especially sensitive to the blood pressure-raising effects of salt and should consume less than the UL."
The Institute of Food Science & Technology reports that "Sodium and chloride ions are dietary essentials; there is rarely a problem of shortage, but, in the case of sodium, the risk lies in excessive intakes."
Currently, some experts suggest a daily PO intake of 10-20 mmol (230-460 mg)/day of sodium (equal to 0.57-1.15 g salt/day) while the average daily intake in the UK is between 85 and 145 mmol (3.0-5.1 g) equivalent to 7.5-12.7 g salt/day, -- derived mainly from sodium chloride – around ten times the amount required to maintain balance (UK Department of Health, 1991).
Now, for the risks associated with too much salt/sodium:
Go find the following studies:
Alderman et al, “Association of the renin-sodium profile with the risk of myocardial infarction in patients with hypertension”. N Engl J Med, 324, 1098-104.
Alderman et al, “Dietary sodium intake and mortality: the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES I)”, The Lancet, 351 (9105), 781-785.
Cutler et al, “An overview of randomised trials of sodium reduction and blood pressure”. Hypertension, 17 (suppl I), I-27-33.
Frost et al, “By how much does dietary salt reduction lower blood pressure? II: analysis of observational data within populations”. British Medical Journal, 302, 815-18.
Universally, they all come to the same conclusions: Too much salt/sodium in the diet is assocaited with Heart failure, cirrhosis, nephrotic syndrome, asthma, stroke, stomach cancer, and other maladies.
Go read, be educated, and rethink your position on the "too much salt" issue. It can be a bad thing, and NOTHING you consume is benign.
Or you can ignore it all and just continue to believe what you want. I don't really care either way.
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 26, 2005, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: OK, here's some light reading. Before you get too quick to discount the studies, Jay, remember that they are consensus studies done by experts in the field. So they're probably a little bit smart.
those smart people who did the consensus studies probably would have mentioned something about athletic activity if that was their target group. at a glance, your studies relate to normal people doing normal things. normal people need something like 2l/day, and as you correctly state, get plenty of electrolyte from their three squares.
However.. dehydration, or its more dire and exciting brethren, heat exhaustion and classic heat stroke, are generally related to excessive water loss due to sweating. sweating ditches about 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 grams salt per liter.
clif bars and candy bars generally have around a tenth of a gram of salt in them, per bar.
so, reno, whatcha' gonna do if you're sweating a liter an hour? if you're in shape, thats a reasonable amount to sweat doing hard work, or climbing in full sun on a hot day. gonna' eat 25 - 35 clif bars per hour to stay on top of things?
you need to increase salt intake. you might say that generally people still get enough salt in their food, seems folks doing a lot of sweating tend to start salting their food more heavily (cravings), but even this would seem to go against your advice.
In reply to: Or you can ignore it all and just continue to believe what you want. I don't really care either way.
better get back to the books, dude. you're right, but clearly out of context.
anthony
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reno
Jun 26, 2005, 5:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: OK, here's some light reading. Before you get too quick to discount the studies, Jay, remember that they are consensus studies done by experts in the field. So they're probably a little bit smart. those smart people who did the consensus studies probably would have mentioned something about athletic activity if that was their target group. at a glance, your studies relate to normal people doing normal things. normal people need something like 2l/day, and as you correctly state, get plenty of electrolyte from their three squares.
Read it again, Mr. Insect. The research (and there's a few hundred of such studies, if you take the time to look,) clearly points out that people generally consume too much salt.
In reply to: However.. dehydration, or its more dire and exciting brethren, heat exhaustion and classic heat stroke, are generally related to excessive water loss due to sweating. sweating ditches about 5 grams salt per liter.
No, they're generally related to many other things, not just salt and water loss. If your postulate were true, one could reverse heat stroke just by popping a salt tablet and swallowing a quart of water. That's obviously not true, is it?
In reply to: clif bars and candy bars generally have around a tenth of a gram of salt in them, per bar. so, reno, whatcha' gonna do if you're sweating a liter an hour? if you're in shape, thats a reasonable amount to sweat doing hard work, or climbing in full sun on a hot day. gonna' eat 50 clif bars per hour to stay on top of things?
Yep. That's exactly what I recommended. IIRC, I suggested 40 Clif Bars a day, but you might have a bigger appetite. :roll:
In reply to: you need to increase salt intake. you might say that generally people still get enough salt in their food, seems folks doing a lot of sweating tend to start salting their food more heavily (cravings), but even this would seem to go against your advice.
Lemme ask you this, just to get a read on where you're coming from:
Why does salt make you thirsty?
But don't take my word for it:
From: Speedy DB, et al; "Oral salt supplementation during ultradistance exercise." Clin J Sport Med. 2003 Jan;13(1):67.
We get: "There was no evidence that sodium ingestion significantly influenced changes in [Na] or PV more than fluid replacement alone in the Ironman triathletes in this study. Sodium supplementation was not necessary to prevent the development of hyponatremia in these athletes who lost weight, indicating that they had only partially replaced their fluid and other losses during the Ironman triathlon."
Next, Fukuba Y, et al; "The effect of high-salt diet intake on muscular exercise ability in young Japanese women." Appl Human Sci. 1998 Jul;17(4):145-8.
Gives us "It was concluded that high-salt diet intake even exceeding 20 g per day had substantially no acute effect on muscular exercise ability."
Further, from Hargreaves M, et al; "Exercise tolerance in the heat on low and normal salt intakes." Clin Sci (Lond). 1989 May;76(5):553-7.
We read "On the basis of these results it is concluded that moderate salt restriction does not impair the ability to exercise in a hot environment."
By the way.... where's the data and research to back up your position, sixlegged? Do you have any? Is the data valid?
Please share... I'd like to read it.
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 26, 2005, 6:21 AM
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In reply to: Read it again, Mr. Insect. The research (and there's a few hundred of such studies, if you take the time to look,) clearly points out that people generally consume too much salt.
man, this kind of bs just annoys the hell out of me, frankly. we've got ourselves a man of stature, a paramedic, and.. yes.. the *moderator* of the accidents and injuries forum. and he still manages to turn a deaf ear to reason.
like i said, you're right, but Out Of Context. hear me? you think there aren't studies that back up what im saying? you dont think that athletes, who sweat more, need more salt than the general population?
In reply to: dehydration, or its more dire and exciting brethren, heat exhaustion and classic heat stroke, are generally related to excessive water loss due to sweating. sweating ditches about 5 grams salt per liter.
(please note that i edited my post for incorrect stats. its about 2.5 - 3.5 g/l.)
In reply to: No, they're generally related to many other things, not just salt and water loss. If your postulate were true, one could reverse heat stroke just by popping a salt tablet and swallowing a quart of water. That's obviously not true, is it?
dude, you're dodging and weaving. heat stroke shoudlnt really be part of the conversation here. the initial emergency treatment has nothing to do with the underlying cause. but yes, once the docs have brought core temperatures down, you dont think they'll be treating classic (dehydrated) heat stroke with a lot of water and a lot of salt? hint: they will.
plain-jane dehydration and severe dehydration and heat exhaustion, in the climbing/hiking/athletics context, are all directly and primarily related to sweating and water loss.
In reply to: I've been dealing with this sort of thing for the better part of a decade, don't hold your breath.
generally speaking, im not a big fan of online posturing and one-upmanship. however, im willing to stoop to a little of it myself if it means exposing a figurehead. you repeatedly state your credentials, and you have a position of power in the forum. therefore you owe it to your flock to get your facts straight.
go to pubmed and type "athletes salt" into the search engine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...query.fcgi?db=PubMed
then get back to us at rc.com and find a way to save face.
anthony
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reno
Jun 26, 2005, 6:35 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Read it again, Mr. Insect. The research (and there's a few hundred of such studies, if you take the time to look,) clearly points out that people generally consume too much salt. man, this kind of bs just annoys the hell out of me, frankly. we've got ourselves a man of stature, a paramedic, and.. yes.. the *moderator* of the accidents and injuries forum. and he still manages to turn a deaf ear to reason.
"Knock, knock... Hello, Kettle? This is the Pot calling."
In reply to: like i said, you're right, but Out Of Context. hear me? you think there aren't studies that back up what im saying? you dont think that athletes, who sweat more, need more salt than the general population?
You claim there are such studies. Show me them.
And let's not change the argument... I never said athletes didn't need more soidum (which, BTW, is only ONE type of salt, but I digress.) What I said was that eating or consuming EXTRA salt wasn't necessary. That's what you don't seem to understand.
In reply to: dude, you're dodging and weaving. heat stroke shoudlnt really be part of the conversation here. the initial emergency treatment has nothing to do with the underlying cause. but yes, once the docs have brought core temperatures down, you dont think they'll be treating classic (dehydrated) heat stroke with a lot of water and a lot of salt? hint: they will.
plain-jane dehydration and severe dehydration and heat exhaustion, in the climbing/hiking/athletics context, are all directly and primarily related to sweating and water loss.
Dehydration, extreme dehydration, and heat stroke/heat exhaustion are two VASTLY different conditions. While the two *may* happen at the same time, they are not mutually inclusive (see: dehydration during winter sports.) Dehydration is due to water loss (or relative water loss.) Heat stroke is due to an increase in the core temperature, due to lack of autoregulation. Certianly the two are not the same, and you trying to indicate they are simply confuses the issue.
In reply to: generally speaking, im not a big fan of online posturing and one-upmanship. however, im willing to stoop to a little of it myself if it means exposing a figurehead. you repeatedly state your credentials, and you have a position of power in the forum. therefore you owe it to your flock to get your facts straight. go to pubmed and type "athletes salt" into the search engine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...query.fcgi?db=PubMed then get back to us at rc.com and find a way to save face.
Go to PubMed, type "Salt intake and exercise" and do the same. Then come talk smack.
I posted some research... did you?
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sixleggedinsect
Jun 26, 2005, 6:55 AM
Post #50 of 59
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Registered: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 385
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In reply to: like i said, you're right, but Out Of Context. hear me? you think there aren't studies that back up what im saying? you dont think that athletes, who sweat more, need more salt than the general population?
In reply to: You claim there are such studies. Show me them.
um, did you forget to check out the pubmed link? with the five studies on the first page which explicitly mentioned sodium losses in athletes, and the explicit or implied (depends on study) need for increased sodium intake?
In reply to: Go to PubMed, type "Salt intake and exercise" and do the same. Then come talk smack. I posted some research... did you?
im back, and i did my homework. your search terms do not produce as relevant a group of studies, but if you sift through, its still there. what, you need me to copy and paste because you're too blind to pull out the relevant information yourself?
J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):39-55
Fluid and fuel intake during exercise
"sodium should be included in fluids consumed during exercise lasting longer than 2 h or by individuals during any event that stimulates heavy sodium loss (more than 3-4 g of sodium)."
so, lets see here. um, lets say we're doing hard activity for, say, an hour. oops! we're already at the 'heavy sodium loss' mark! better increase your sodium intake if you're going to keep playing outside!
In reply to: And let's not change the argument... I never said athletes didn't need more soidum. What I said was that eating or consuming EXTRA salt wasn't necessary. That's what you don't seem to understand.
wait, what the heck were you saying? you said-
In reply to: Most probably, you get enough salt in your regular diet. Extra will do no good.
great advice! but only if you're assuming the poster you were replying to was *not* an athlete, and was therefore not going to be sweating more than the average american. given this is a rockclimbing.com, not tvguide.com, id say thats a pretty thick assumption.
but you werent assuming the person wasnt an athlete. you're just trying to back your way our of this discussion without looking foolish.
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