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mojavedesertrat
Jun 26, 2005, 4:39 AM
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So I want to learn aid. From what I've read, I should start with a bolt ladder and a double set of etriers. OK... so I'll do that... but what then? How does one progress from... bolt ladder to... The Nose? i.e. using copperheads, circleheads, micronuts, pitons, ya know... the whole works :lol:
What I mean to say is... how do you start developing the necessary skills to climb aid in a serious setting (bolt ladders aren't all that serious)? I don't know ANYONE who's even vaguely interested in learning aid, nor in watching me struggle up a pitch for 3 hours, nor who already knows aid and is willing to take me under their wing...
any thoughts? suggestions?
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areuinclimber
Jun 26, 2005, 4:52 AM
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books and balls
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coldclimb
Jun 26, 2005, 7:02 AM
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Jump in with both feet. Buy a bunch of gear, read up as much as you can on techniques and systems, and start. I did that a few months ago. I think you'll find that it's much less daunting than it seemed, and it's a ton of fun and opens up many more possibilities for you on the rock. ;)
Getting into aid is really cool. I know, because I just did it. :lol: Constantly learning new cool things. And plus, you get to use the line "I'm an AID climber" when you get repelled by sport routes repeatedly. :lol:
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ricardol
Jun 26, 2005, 7:50 AM
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1. read books on how to aid
2. ask questions to climbers on this forum and supertopo
3. learn to solo (PTPP stuff can help)
4. practice aid solo. (or if you can get a friend to help -- get a belay on the first few times out) -- do a few easy single pitch cracks for practice.
5. practice, practice, practice -- buy gear, buy gear, buy gear.
6. pick a route
7. read all the beta available for the route -- TR's, etc.
8. solo the route
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climbingbetty22
Jun 28, 2005, 4:41 PM
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I'm a similar position to what you are...wanting to learn aid, but not having a plethora of resources nor ideas for how and where to begin. I just bought Jared Odgen's book on Big Wall technique by the Mountaineers Press at Rock and Snow this past weekend. Just started reading it and so far its really cool. Great illustrations too. You may want to pick up a copy as well.
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ricardol
Jun 28, 2005, 4:44 PM
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here is what i did to learn and practice
1. top-roped a short crack close to home (aided it on toprope)
2. led a short crack in yosemite (with a belay)
3. learned to solo -- soloed the first pitch of freeblast (took 4hrs to lead)
4. soloed the 1st pitch of freeblast (3 hrs) - C1
5. soloed the 1st pitch of new dawn (2 1/2 hrs) - C2
6. soloed the 1st pitch of new dawn (2 hrs) - C2
by now i had placed clean gear, done penjis, and cleaned.
deemed myself ready and jumped on a route.
I would suggest though that you also get some practice on placing heads and hauling before you jump on a route --
placing heads is not very difficult, but having the right tools is essential (Russ's headmaster kit -- i dont own one, but i bet its great, i just went ot home depot and bought my own) -- also heading is not really something that you want to learn while on lead 1000' above the deck and alone.
placing pins is pretty simple -- listen to the tone, when it goes up you're done. dont overdrive.
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asandh
Jun 28, 2005, 4:45 PM
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:)
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shakylegs
Jun 28, 2005, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: My first dozen aid climbs were solo short single pitches, all except one, where I had a belayer who was bored out of his skull. I practiced jugging over and over again off a tree limb. Use your noggin - that's what you'll have to do on the sharp end anyway. GO
How did you go about this? The solo-ing, I mean? Were you top-rope soloing while practising your aid climbing? Honest question, I'm really curious.
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cracklover
Jun 28, 2005, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My first dozen aid climbs were solo short single pitches, all except one, where I had a belayer who was bored out of his skull. I practiced jugging over and over again off a tree limb. Use your noggin - that's what you'll have to do on the sharp end anyway. GO How did you go about this? The solo-ing, I mean? Were you top-rope soloing while practising your aid climbing? Honest question, I'm really curious.
Nope, no toprope. I put one inch webbing around a tree or boulder or two at the base of the climb. Equalize at a power point if necessary, and that's your anchor.
I did TR one aid climb. I think it was a waste of time. The aid was harder than I could do, and I swung off onto the TR lots of times. Had I properly aided that route, I would have cratered for sure. I don't think I learned much from that experience, and I went back to aiding easier lines - on lead.
GO
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shakylegs
Jun 28, 2005, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: Nope, no toprope. I put one inch webbing around a tree or boulder or two at the base of the climb. Equalize at a power point if necessary, and that's your anchor.
Damn, can't picture this, so I'll go back to looking it up in the Big Walls book.
Thanks for trying.
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cracklover
Jun 28, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Nope, no toprope. I put one inch webbing around a tree or boulder or two at the base of the climb. Equalize at a power point if necessary, and that's your anchor. Damn, can't picture this, so I'll go back to looking it up in the Big Walls book. Thanks for trying.
Maybe where I'm losing you is that you're picturing a slingshot style toprope anchor, where the rope goes through the anchor. In this case, the rope is fixed to the anchor, runs up through the gear as placed while aiding up the pitch, and then to your harness. The rope at your harness is the "belay". As you go up, you need to feed out rope, and there are various ways to do this.
In other words, in standard roped climbing, the rope is fixed at the harness, and something else acts as the belay. In solo-aid, the rope is fixed at the anchor, not the harness, and the belay happens at the harness.
Does that make any more sense?
GO
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shakylegs
Jun 28, 2005, 9:35 PM
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Much more sense. Thanks.
(I'm ashamed to say the small words helped.) ;)
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dangle
Jun 28, 2005, 9:59 PM
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Talking to most people these days could leave one with the impression that thinking is work, possibly even painful. Then there are a few people who like myself enjoy an intellectual challenge. Perhaps thats why I've been doing walls for more than 30 years. Its as good a reason as any to postpone growing up.
So mojavedesertrat, from one desert rat to another, if you want to do aid and go for "position"(lots of air) then Gabe's advice is probably the most cogent (even if he did descend Cerberus in the dark).
"Use your noggin'"
Falling back on the internet for solutions to specific situations is useful but when I started there was no internet and even if there had been there was nobody who soloed desert walls to query. I just figured it out for myself. When confronting difficulties I just asked myself what would somebody smarter than me do (BESIDES run away).
All you really need is basic physics and some brains. Get out there, get experienced, use your head and use backups.
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craftedpacket
Jun 28, 2005, 10:43 PM
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Cracklover:
In your solo aiding, what type of "belay" device did you use?
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dangle
Jun 28, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Yeah Gabe, how DO you solo all those damn routes??
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cracklover
Jun 29, 2005, 1:59 AM
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In reply to: Yeah Gabe, how DO you solo all those damn routes??
All right. :roll:
Ron here is the expert. I'm a complete novice. Seriously. He and I do agree on one thing, though - use your noggin!
With that said, I'm happy to share my very limited experience. Most of my aiding was done with a clove hitch on a locking biner as my "belay device" (backed up by another one).
I've also did one route where I used an unmodified gri-gri backed up by a clove hitch. I wasn't very happy with that setup, though, as all the slack between the gri-gri and the clove hitch inevitably would get sucked through the gri-gri by the weight of the rope, leaving fifteen extra feet of slack. Worst of all, I didn't always notice when it slipped through. Sure would have noticed if a piece I'd been standing on had ripped though!
Ron, what do or did you solo on?
GO
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ricardol
Jun 29, 2005, 7:46 AM
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i also use a grigri to solo aid .. (unmodified)
.. to avoid the problem of slack building up ... rebelay the rope ever once in a while (once or twice per pitch) ..
many methods of rebelay are used..
1. clove hitch to piece
2. use a long prussik to hold weight of rope
3. kate uses rubber bands to hitch the rope to a piece.
all valid .. take your choice..
i use long prussiks..
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cracklover
Jun 29, 2005, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: i also use a grigri to solo aid .. (unmodified) .. to avoid the problem of slack building up ... rebelay the rope ever once in a while (once or twice per pitch) .. many methods of rebelay are used.. 1. clove hitch to piece 2. use a long prussik to hold weight of rope 3. kate uses rubber bands to hitch the rope to a piece. all valid .. take your choice.. i use long prussiks..
Cool idea. Thanks for the tips!
GO
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dangle
Jun 29, 2005, 11:06 PM
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Been busy. But thanks to ricardol for picking up the slack (sorry, I just couldn't resist THAT one).
For some 30 years I've used the long prussik routine on anchors AND to keep rope from slipping back through a belay device (spent years using an old compact CLOG ascender).
Apparently it works. Even the crappy old ascender held a couple of 30' zippers. Now people give me all kinds of weird gadgets.
Trivia quiz: What is the origin of the word GADGET? (Seems appropriate for an AID thread.) Hint; comes from France by way of New York.
Anyway the name of the game when roped soloing is to stop thinking like you have a belayer that lacks even the talent of an inflatable doll. In fact, ...well never mind. As I was saying you don't need to use belay stances if your doll is deflated. You can locate your primary anchor WHERE ITS CONVENIENT TO HAUL TO OR FROM (better yet, BOTH).
Did I say PRIMARY ANCHOR?
Yes. Because the rope is static and the leader/belayer moves you can make do at the start of a "pitch" and beef up the belay along the way. This too can serve to keep the rope from backsliding under its own weight. (Hate them backsliders.) One learns to note bomber UPWARD pull anchor potential right below good standard placements.
One should recognize the adverse effect upon one's fall factor as this ratio will be raised by reducing much of the "rope in system" which in turn can raise the impact force on the pro. If you don't understand what this means its time to halt your roped soloing and study a little basic physics as applied to climbing.
Of course the name of this thread is learning aid not learning solo aid, and personally I think that the two are quite removed. Trying to do both at once is to my mind a bad idea. This is coming from the (surviving) voice of experience.
Do as I say not as I did.
That issue is at least better addressed by the title of a thread named How Long Until I Can Solo A Big Wall.
More trivia; how did Tom Patey define the term Running Belay?
Also in regards to Kate beefing up belays with a rubber band, this is obviously NOT where I use the material but then it can't be much worse than being belayed by an inflatable doll.....
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dangle
Jun 29, 2005, 11:12 PM
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This system SUCKS!!!!!
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tradalltheway
Jun 29, 2005, 11:21 PM
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A common cheap device is a locking biner w/ a clove hitch around it. as you move up you loosen the hitch and let some rope out to make upward progress. many other more expensive and more specialized devices can be used. Check out www.wrenindustries.com for some of there aid specific belay devices. Don't forget to back up even the best devices by tying backup knots along the way.
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ricardol
Jun 30, 2005, 12:45 AM
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hmm .. i forgot to go back and edit my previous post --
i wanted to add that i rebelay my rope with different methods depending on the situation.
usually the rebelay comes at the 80' mark .. or earlier if it makes sense .. (ie a sharp edge is coming up ahead, etc, etc)..
if the rebelay point is bomber and will take an upward pull then i will clove hitch to it... otherwise i use the long prussik method...
make sure the prussik is long enough so that in case of a fall, you dont end up hanging from the prussik .. (that could cause the rope to fail) .. -- somewhere in PTPP articles he has a suggested length .. -- its worked fine for me.
-- also if you do clove hitch onto a bomber piece, do it when there are other pieces above that you will be clippnig soon. -- otherwise you'll be risking a factor 2 fall onto 1 single piece .. (this happened to me -- i clove hitched a bolt, and then ended up runout on hook for 15 feet.. and finally had to free about 5 more feet of 5.8 .. until i got on another hook .. and then finally some gear ... not good!)
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dangle
Jun 30, 2005, 1:05 AM
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One of those 30'ers was a fall factor 1.6 onto a half incher driven straight up partially inserted.
Because it was straight up I didn't bother to tie it off.
Ever since then I have had a great fondness for the half inch angle.
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