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far_east_climber
Jun 25, 2005, 12:24 PM
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After coming back from Yosemite and doing a couple walls I made a puzzling observation. I noticed that I never once saw anyone use adjustable daisies with their ladders. Everybody I saw was using the archaic regular daisy and fifi. Is there something wrong with my eyes? Am I actually the fool who is wasting time and energy? I was always under the impression that adjustables were the way to go after having tried out both types. Is there some added benefit to the regular daisy and fifi that I am unaware of? Someone please explain...
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texplorer
Jun 25, 2005, 5:23 PM
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I don't know where you were looking but adjustable daisys are the new wave. Most of the valley's seasoned aiders use them now. While there are still a few people who prefer the old fifi setup most new climbers use the adjustables. Ultimately you should do what works best for yourself.
I have played with a one and two adjustable daisy system and really find them superior to the fifi system. I am sure you'll find some other opinions but definetely go with the adjustables.
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lambone
Jun 25, 2005, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: Is there some added benefit to the regular daisy and fifi that I am unaware of? Someone please explain...
simplicity, speed, saftey, cost...ect.
Adjustables possibly won't hold a daisy fall, I know you shouldn't daisy fall, but it happens, and if your run out on hard aid you could be taking the big plunge.
Adjustables are slower hands down, too much time wasted adjusting things.
They are expensive and don't last very long.
Personally I think they cause more fatigue on big walls because it takes some effort to loosen them and pull them tight all day long. Last time I used them on El Cap I had to eventually stop adjusting them because my shoulders and elbows were so sore...this never happened with regular daisies.
my 2 cents
I prefer regular daisies with an adjustable fifi. to each his own.
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ricardol
Jun 26, 2005, 7:54 AM
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i may be in the minority --
i use adj daisies, and an adj. fifi ..
.. though most of the time i never adjust the daisies .. (i know -- i'm taking a huge risk if i whip onto the daisy -- most likely it would break)
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no_one
Jun 30, 2005, 2:28 AM
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I agree with lambone. I've tried Yates and Metolius. Most my experience is with Yates, in fact when they first came out I got a pair and was dead set on getting to like them. I did like them for easing onto scary crap but that's about it. I also use the old "archaic" set up and it's been the best in my opinion overall, not totally problem free, but best overall. To be totally honest though I hate all Daisey setups! I only use daisy's on hard aid. The set up I use is 2 aiders (regular), 1 Daisey (regular) clipped with it's own locking biner to a back gear loop, and a fifi. With this set up there's no cluster F@$# and no fear of a Daisey fall, yes you will take a longer fall but it will be soft, not a kidney buster. I use my fifi on any thing I can, if I need a rest. Besides once your in your top step the daisey is just in the way. However, my main climbing partner uses two adjustable metolius aiders, and two metolius adjustable daisies, and does so efficiently. So again as lambone said, to each his own! Good luck!
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karlbaba
Jun 30, 2005, 3:23 AM
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I'm a huge believer in Yates Adjustables. I'm old and fat and weak, so believe me, they don't make things harder. Couple days ago, despite being old and off the couch and weak, I led Lost in America to Virginia to the top of pitch 4 on the Trip and hauled a huge bag up the whole thing after hiking all the gear in the same day. Still had plenty of time to set up the bivy under the roof. I wasn't too worked cause I was hanging in my wall harness on my daisies at all possible times.
I think folks who complain about the adjustables just aren't using them properly. There is NO WAY that you can adjust regular daisies as fast as adjustables, and regular daisies certainly don't lengthen or adjust when loaded, so how can they be faster? Must be the way you use them.
I just converted about 4-5 years ago, so I've done piles of walls for 15+ years with regular daisies. I'm never going back. When I teach folks aid, I give em one regular daisy and one adjustable. Then they decide. Nobody ever asks to give the adjustable one back in exchange to regular.
Peace
Karl
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sparkytheflash
Jul 6, 2005, 6:54 AM
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i swear by my adjustibles they are super fast copared to the old system. i use metolius. they were the first i tried and i liked them so much i never had to move on to try the yates. those preferring to use the old system aren't using adjustables properly or they just don't want to change despite what they say. what i do is i still use a fifi and hook the beaner on the gear or the cable or the webbing. i don't pull the daisy's all the way in and therefore don't have to pull them all the way out. however they aren't that hard to pull out if you really know what you are doing and what angle you should hold them at. i use the adjustable aiders too and i'm only getting faster.
dave
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russwalling
Jul 6, 2005, 10:24 PM
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sparkytheflash talks right out of his ass with: **those preferring to use the old system aren't using adjustables properly or they just don't want to change despite what they say.**
With all due respect and a long history of bad n00b advice previous to yours here on the internet, that is just not correct. Your other post looking for El Cap partners outlined your minimal experience, and this post confirms that inexperience. I would suggest you have more of an idea of what you are talking about before spouting such axioms as that above.
I prefer regular daisy chains, do not use a fifi, and am plenty fast in the aiders. Resume available on request.
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shack
Jul 7, 2005, 4:51 AM
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Russ...that's because you have as you put it...."adjustable lats"!
Some of us are still doing 24 oz curls and you've been
doing 40 ouncers for years.
We can only aspire.
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imnotclever
Jul 7, 2005, 1:08 PM
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Shack, what took you so long? On a day that rc was down besides. ST wasn't slow. Welcome.
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sparkytheflash
Jul 7, 2005, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: sparkytheflash talks right out of his ass with: **those preferring to use the old system aren't using adjustables properly or they just don't want to change despite what they say.** With all due respect and a long history of bad n00b advice previous to yours here on the internet, that is just not correct. Your other post looking for El Cap partners outlined your minimal experience, and this post confirms that inexperience. I would suggest you have more of an idea of what you are talking about before spouting such axioms as that above. I prefer regular daisy chains, do not use a fifi, and am plenty fast in the aiders. Resume available on request.
russwalling,
well gee i guess i don't have to worry about getting stuck on the wall with thank goodness. we all can use more experience and sure i may not have the experience of someone who's done el cap two or three times. just because i don't live in cali. allowing me to make regular trips to el cap doesn't make me inexperienced. i done plenty of crap up here at index and i've aided enough to know what works well and doesn't get all cluttered. i've tried both systems and i'm considerablly faster with the adjustablesand so are a lot of other people. i've seen plenty of people that just refuse to change to a faster system and if it works for them fine. i think i've been around and seen enough to have a valid opinion and not you or anyone else is going to take that away from me. so just keep your arrogance to yourself.
dave
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dangle
Jul 7, 2005, 6:05 PM
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My mythology is rusty. Who was it who put stones in his mouth to teach himself to speak more clearly?
My $.02;
If the aid isn't very hard or awkward I use single aiders, no sub-aider or daisy (covered elsewhere; I lock off).
As things become more awkward or hairier I add stuff like a third aider or a couple of biners or a draw. Finally I'll resort to the full regalia (if I also need to wear my Depends).
Finally there's that level where you are no longer dependent on gear but rather saying WTF am I doing up here....
You know, I think I just invented a new aid rating system!
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dangle
Jul 7, 2005, 6:10 PM
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Looks like I stepped into a tiff AND failed to answer the question.
Both adjustable and standard work for me when I really need them but standard are better for expanding since they are stronger.
Commence firing.
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csproul
Jul 7, 2005, 6:15 PM
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So Russwalling lays into sparkytheflash for saying :
In reply to: those preferring to use the old system aren't using adjustables properly or they just don't want to change despite what they say
yet says nothing about karlbaba saying:
In reply to: There is NO WAY that you can adjust regular daisies as fast as adjustables, and regular daisies certainly don't lengthen or adjust when loaded, so how can they be faster? Must be the way you use them.
The selectivity with whom you start arguments is kind of funny. I know nothing about aiding so I have no opinion, but just an observation.
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russwalling
Jul 7, 2005, 6:17 PM
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sparkytheflash gushes: **hey listen here chump you don't even know me so watch what you say**
Sadly Sparky, I do know you. I know you through your posts, and they are not the posts of experience. You sir, are a n00b.
**i've tried both systems and i'm considerablly faster with the adjustables.**
That may be true, and if that works for you, great. It does not work for everyone.
** i've seen plenty of people that just refuse to change to a faster system and if it works for them fine**
A new system may not be faster for them. That is the point you are missing. Adjustable does not mean faster.
**but just because i don't live in cali. allowing me to make regular trips to el cap doesn't make me inexperienced. i don't plenty of crap up here at index. so just keep your arrogance to yourself.**
It's not arrogance, but fact. You are giving faulty and erroneous advice, coupled with supposed mind reading skills of why other climbers don't use your system.
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atg200
Jul 7, 2005, 6:22 PM
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this thread has become awesome. maybe someday russ will manage to get up el cap 2 or even 3 times so he will be really experienced and then he can switch to adjustable daisys :)
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dangle
Jul 7, 2005, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: this thread has become awesome. maybe someday russ will manage to get up el cap 2 or even 3 times so he will be really experienced and then he can switch to adjustable daisys :)
Enlighten us. What is the benefit of stirring up the s__t?
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russwalling
Jul 7, 2005, 6:32 PM
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**So Russwalling lays into sparkytheflash for saying :
Quote:
those preferring to use the old system aren't using adjustables properly or they just don't want to change despite what they say
yet says nothing about karlbaba saying:
Quote:
There is NO WAY that you can adjust regular daisies as fast as adjustables, and regular daisies certainly don't lengthen or adjust when loaded, so how can they be faster? Must be the way you use them.
The selectivity with whom you start arguments is kind of funny. I know nothing about aiding so I have no opinion, but just an observation. **
That is why you don't get it. It is not a selectivity for argument sake. Karl is correct in saying you can't adjust regular daisies as fast as adjustables. He also adds, and this is key, "Must be the way you use them".
But, that "adjustment" thing is not a large part of the regular daisy useage, for me. I use the end loop, to make sure I don't lose any gear on the test or placement, then I walk right up the aider and clip in at my waist. No adjustment needed. So Karl is right, I am right, and your obeservation need a larger background to be right.
As a side note, it looks like Sparky has used the edit button on his post. So I'm not a Chump anymore? Ain't backpedaling grand.....
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dangle
Jul 7, 2005, 7:04 PM
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I've started using the preview button more JUST to avoid using the edit button only to correct a spelling error because it merely LOOKS like backpedaling.
Here! Here! Russ. I'm with you on that. Two faced double speakers should have their posts bracketed with large ALLEDGEDLYs. But then again toning down epithets shows a certain maturity.
Perhaps the importance of the issue in discussion should determine the level of "exuberance".
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skinner
Jul 7, 2005, 9:28 PM
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As with most gear/setups.. *I Think* it's whatever works for YOU.
I prefer a standard daisy with or without a FiFi.
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shack
Jul 7, 2005, 9:40 PM
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Karl said......
In reply to: I'm old and fat and weak,
Now Karl, thats not exactly true...
Ok, partly true.
I think the real advantage of the adj. daisey is for guys like Karl and I.
The only thing Karl forgot to add was..Lazy.
I think the "winching" effect you get helps fat and lazy guys (like me)
climb the aiders easier.
NOTE: I said "easier" NOT faster or better.
Russ is in a completely different category.
He may be old, fat and lazy, but he ain't weak.
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shack
Jul 7, 2005, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: I'm old and fat and weak,
Now Karl, thats not exactly true...
Ok, partly true.
I think the real advantage of the adj. daisey is for guys like Karl and I.
The only thing Karl forgot to add was..Lazy.
I think the "winching" effect you get helps fat and lazy guys (like me)
climb the aiders easier.
NOTE: I said "easier" NOT faster or better.
Russ is in a completely different category.
He may be old, fat and lazy, but he ain't weak.
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sparkytheflash
Jul 7, 2005, 11:00 PM
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**It's not arrogance, but fact. You are giving faulty and erroneous advice, coupled with supposed mind reading skills of why other climbers don't use your system.**
i don't read minds, like you have assumed, i have talked to many different climbers that just made up their minds they weren't going to switch for various reasons. i have always said that if other people don't want to switch that's fine but i'm not going to change my opinion that adjustable's are faster just because you flamed me. if you truly want to change someones opinion try being a little more respectful and you might see better results.
**Sadly Sparky, I do know you. I know you through your posts, and they are not the posts of experience. You sir, are a n00b.**
that's incredible you can completely know someone based off two posts they've made and make assumptions about them. i jumped on this site only two days ago and i'm already figuring out how to identify the *** holes on this site. thanks for speeding up the process up for me.
i think i have plenty of climbers that appreciate the adjustable's to back me up. many of these climbers might be more experienced than you perhaps.
thanks to csproul for pointing out karlbaba's post. hmmm that's interesting you don't hear russwalling speaking out against karl and his opinions.
sparky
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landgolier
Jul 7, 2005, 11:20 PM
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Man, I <3 this thread. Would only be better if this were going on live in el cap meadow or something...
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shack
Jul 7, 2005, 11:26 PM
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It took Russ 2 posts to spot a n00b?
Thats one more than usual.
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