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phile
Aug 1, 2005, 7:40 PM
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sorry, can't find this in a search--I know it's in here somewhere.
If top-roping something that requires 2 ropes, tying in short sounds like a good way to avoid having to pass the knot. What's the best knot for this--just a figure 8 on a bight? And what's the best way to manage the extra rope length coming off the end of it?
Also, what's the best knot to join the 2 ropes? I used a pair of follow-through figure 8s this weekend, and that seemed like a reasonable choice, but is there something better?
Thanks for any help!
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mburke225
Aug 1, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Maybe not the best way, but the way I do it.
1) Figure 8 works fine.
1a) Just wrap the rest of the rope around your waist.
2) Water knot with a double/triple fishermans backup (depending on size of ropes)
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dirtineye
Aug 1, 2005, 7:50 PM
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For tying in short, I like a bowline on a bight, with the loop that forms what would be the tail in a regular bowline clipped to the rope with a locker. You could put a yosemite finish on the Bowline, but I'd still clip the tail loop to the rope.
For joining two ropes for TR, A rewoven figure 8 bend, AKA flemish bend, with backups will do a nice job.
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cgailey
Aug 1, 2005, 8:11 PM
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I've climbed on a figure eight on a bight while tied in short, with the extra rope trailing bekind, and it worked fine (granted this was a sport crag where there was nothing for the extra rope to get hung up on). Three of us were climbing off a hanging belay and it was a lot faster for the middle climber to tie in short. I've used the butterfly for glacier travel, but not on rock...not too sure how well it would work, but it saves the biner...
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phile
Aug 1, 2005, 8:22 PM
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thanks for the suggestions, all! cgailey, how do you use a butterfly without a carabiner? I can't picture it.
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aikibujin
Aug 1, 2005, 8:23 PM
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If you "tying-in" short by clip into a loop of rope, figure 8 on a bight, bowline on a bight, and alpine butterfly all works. However, most people know how to tie figure 8 on a bight, so that's probably the most common one. Use two lockers to clip in instead of just one.
I personally prefer to tie-in directly to the rope. I use the figure 8 follow-through, just like when I'm tying-in to the end, but use a bight of rope instead. I then clip the bight that's coming out from the knot into my belay loop with a biner. It's a bulky knot, but no biner to crossload, break, etc.
The extra rope I'd just trail behind me. I'd use a double-fisherman's knot to join two ropes for climbing. Overhand is good for rappelling, but I don't know if I'd trust it with falls.
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robo555
Aug 2, 2005, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: thanks for the suggestions, all! cgailey, how do you use a butterfly without a carabiner? I can't picture it.
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly
This here shows how to tie the Alpine Butterfly around an object, which would eliminate a biner. As with all knots that ties around an object, you'll need access to end of the rope.
The Alpine Butterfly is also a very secure knot for joining two ropes together.
http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm
Advantage of this over Double Fisherman is it's easier to untie afterwards. It's OK to use the Double Fisherman for pussiks 'cos you don't normally untie them, and the knot is smooth, but for joining two ropes, the Alpine Butterfly seems like a better alternative.
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phile
Aug 2, 2005, 1:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: thanks for the suggestions, all! cgailey, how do you use a butterfly without a carabiner? I can't picture it. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#AlpineButterfly This here shows how to tie the Alpine Butterfly around an object, which would eliminate a biner. As with all knots that ties around an object, you'll need access to end of the rope.
Ah-hah. I see. Thanks--you people rock.
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slobmonster
Aug 2, 2005, 4:50 AM
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In reply to: I personally prefer to tie-in directly to the rope. I use the figure 8 follow-through, just like when I'm tying-in to the end, but use a bight of rope instead. I then clip the bight that's coming out from the knot into my belay loop with a biner. It's a bulky knot, but no biner to crossload, break, etc. The extra rope I'd just trail behind me...
Try this: instead of your (admittedly) huge figure-8, use a retraced overhand on a bight, and clip the loop that sticks out just like your example. The bulk of this knot is a little more than a normal figure-8 tie-in, is plenty strong, and unties easily.
To get the excess rope out of the way of my feet, I'll usually draw a bight in between my legs, and clove hitch to a rear gear loop or haul loop. Make sure you don't givbe yourself short shrift here.
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aikibujin
Aug 5, 2005, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: If you "tying-in" short by clip into a loop of rope, ... Use two lockers to clip in instead of just one. I personally prefer to tie-in directly to the rope.
Sorry to bring back an old thread, but Dingus's post in another thread reminded me why I do things this way.
In reply to: I looked down in confusion and my heart froze. The knot I tied into the end of the rope was completely disconnected from the biner and was hanging in free space at about chest height. The biner was stuck open and hanging from my harness by the notch in the gate.
Read the whole story to see what happened. A good reminder.
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murockman
Aug 5, 2005, 2:46 AM
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how about a barrell knot to tie two ropes together? unless this is the same as what all you guys are calling the double fisherman.
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~brmrg/knots/barrell.html
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mtnfr34k
Aug 5, 2005, 3:10 AM
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Another way to deal with this is on the belayer's end. Have two belay devices and locking carabiners, one prerigged immediately above the knot joining the two ropes. The belayer operates with one device as normal, and when the knot and pre-rigged belay device come within reach, he simply clips the new device into his belay loop, locks the 'biner, and continues to belay on the second device. When lowering, the climber will have to unweight the rope momentarily so that the belayer can unclip the second device from his belay loop and continue to lower on the first device.
Its not near as complicated as it may sound. Using a Gri-Gri or Clutch as a first device even provides an element of back up to the system.
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abe_ascends
Aug 5, 2005, 3:51 AM
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To tie in short to the rope, I like to use either an alpine butterfly or an "in-line" figure eight. The nice thing about the in-line eight is that the loop points down to your harness, rather than out to the side, with one end of the rope pointing up toward the top rope anchor, and the other end of the rope pointing downward. Very nice if you have a third person tying in at the end of the rope as well.
Here is a link to learn how to do it: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/F8Knots.htm
Cheers
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dr_fil_good
Aug 5, 2005, 5:10 AM
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remember that the Fig of eight knot is actually really supposed to be used for a single standing end, the inside line of a fig. of eight is something like 20-30% weaker than the outside 'standing end' (which has already weakened at the point of the knot by approx 20% just by being a fig. of 8 knot)
I'd go Alpine Butterfly all the way. A quick and easy way of tying th eknot is this (try and follow, reverse left for right if you are left handed) ...
- Open your left hand with your thumb pointing to the sky and your fingers to the horizon
- using your right hand run the rope from beneath your hand, up to and over your palm of your hand, over the webbing between your thumb and index finger, and then down the back of your hand
- repeat this twice creating three loops, with the first closest to your thumb and working the next two towards your finget tips
- looking at your palm, grab the first loop (closest to your thumb) and lift it over the other two loops (with your right hand)
- holding that loop in place with your fingers on your left hand grab the second loop (now closest to your thumb) and move that over the other two loops
- still holding that second loop, run it down underneath the other loops (between the loops and your palm) and pull it through
- remove the loops from your hand still holding onto the loop that you put through the other two
- you now have an alpine butterfly knot.
Sounds tricky, and may be the first time you try it - after that it's probably one of the quickest knots you will be able to tie - it's SOOPA fast!!!
Rock on!!!
Phil
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