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andrewbanandrew
Jul 29, 2005, 5:36 PM
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Since I only did backpacking and carcamping for the longest time (and mostly in the summer, for that matter), I bought the cheapest synthetic sleeping bag I could find. It's an off-brand one made by a company called PRIME USA. I don't remember what it was rated to nor, I just remember it being cheap. Currently it takes up about a third of the volume in my 50L pack which is mildly annoying, even for backpacking.
Anyway, I'd like to replace it with something I could use for short alpine trips in the Cascades and other areas in Washington State. I don't know much about alpine climbing since I've just started, so that's why I'm posting here.
From my searches I've gathered that:
Down is a lot lighter and a lot more compressible than synthetic insulation but if it gets wet you're going to hate life. Synthetic supposedly retains ~60% of its insulating properties even when wet. Down lasts a lot longer. Primaloft seems to be the best synthetic insulation?
There are ten million different shell fabrics (Pertex, E-VENT, etc) and I don't know how to tell them apart. Temp ratings seem to be kinda arbitrary although total weight of insulating material used has a lot to do with it.
I would personally rather buy a synthetic bag because it could perceivably do double duty for backpacking where I've gotten rained on, a lot. However I really don't know what to go with.
I was looking at three synthetic bags that seemed promising, the Renaissance made by Integral Designs, one made by Marmot (Pounder Plus, I think...nobody knows anything about it apparently), and another made by REI (Nooksack UL +10). I think all of these were in the 20-25 degree range, and about the same weight.
The ID and REI bags look to be warmer and heavier than the Marmot bag, but if the Marmot bag is as warm as the other two and as light as the other two then that'd be neat (doubtful since I think they all use Primaloft Sport). I'd like to go try on all of these before I buy them. It seems like if the short version of the Renaissance fits me it'd be ideal.
BUT if I am misguided in my thinking about what class of bag I need, none of this matters at all. So, any advice?
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sspssp
Jul 29, 2005, 6:23 PM
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For the pacific NW, synthetic is probably a good choice. Some more info that would help people give you advice: how early, late in the year are you talking about, how high of elevation, and what sort of tent (or bivy sack) are you going with. If you have a good tent, the fancy fabrics on the outside of the bag are less important.
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builttospill
Jul 29, 2005, 6:35 PM
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You'll also want to tell people here whether you tend to get cold when you sleep or not.....I have a 32 degree bag that I use for 3 season camping before busting out the heavier bag, and I get pretty cold sometimes, and not at high elevations either. I have poor circulation and a tendency to get cold while sleeping.
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muskie
Jul 29, 2005, 6:41 PM
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From personal experience I've been able to get away with down for almost all situations. I have a 0 degree TNF pertex endurance bag that I lived out of for 3 months. It was taken on multiple multi day trips in the sierras, cascades, tetons, RMNP, and the canadian rockies. I didn't have any problem with moisture control throughout the trip. The pertex endurance coating seemed to shed any moisture extreamly well. In winter i found that in the morning all i had to do was knock the frost off the outside and it was good to go. Only fault I've found with it was it really began to stink, but what do you expect after 3 months. I've also used a bag with dryloft which seems to be alighter coating, but it doesn't seme to shed water quite as well.
One other thing that i've noticed form using a few synthetic bags is that when using them durring the winter, since most don't have any sort of a waterproof/ breathable coating, moisture seems to pass through it. Granted the bag remains warm, but after that water freezes, it can make it a real pain to pack it up in the morning.
Oh almost forgot, I sleep kinda warm so I can get away with less of a sleeping bag. My TNF 0 degree was brought all the way down to -38F once without a problem while sleeping in my bibler eldorado(the tent did help keep the heat in) Never brought it above 14000ft so im not sure how high altude your looking at. I did however, use it in the Hoh rainforest once and moisture was not a problem. I also used my cheapy 0F synthetic Kelty bag in a Mountain Hardware Trango when the temps dropped to -30F. This felt a bit cooler but again the different tent could have had something to do with it. ething to do with it.
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graniteboy
Jul 29, 2005, 8:50 PM
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If you're really meticulous and have tons of experience, a down bag can work well in almost any climate. But it sounds like you're still getting to that skill level, so I'd definitely suggest a synthetic for the Pacific Northwest.
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chossdog
Jul 30, 2005, 2:59 PM
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It also depends on the kind of climbing you intend to do. If it’s technical and "fast-n-light" you'll want to consider weight as a primary factor informing your gear selections. Consider that your shell and layers can also be considered a "part" of your sleep system. You gotta take them anyway so you might as well make them work for you 24/7. I climb in the North Cascades often (just got back from a Rainier carry-over/traverse) and usually take a Wild Things Primaloft Half Bag to match with a Wild Things Belay Jacket (and Belay Bibs - also in Primaloft). This gets matched with a lightweight 4-season bivy sack. All things considered this helps to keep my overall load down to about 35 pounds for the typical 3-4 day technical alpine project. However, in all things touching on thermal comfort YMMV (your mileage may vary). My partners and I ended up doing an unplanned bivy on Rainier's summit. On this trip I left the Belay Bibs at home to save weight (and space). The summit bivy was brisk but survivable. When it’s really nippy (read Alaskan Range –NOT Denali) I bring my dear old (26 years old to be precise) TNF -20 down bag paired with the bivy sack. Dump the mess into a compression stuff sack and cinch it tight.
Regards,
Choss
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chossdog
Jul 30, 2005, 5:51 PM
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Light weight W/B bivy sack. Mountain Hardware's SL Conduit Bivy is a good one that weighs in at about 16 oz.
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andrewbanandrew
Jul 30, 2005, 7:31 PM
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So I guess it's between having good handling habits for down or replacing a synthetic bag every couple of years?
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chossdog
Jul 30, 2005, 11:44 PM
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In many situations down is the way to go. Best warmth to weight ratio of any insulation you can select. Primaloft is close but because it's a short staple fiber it's more fragile but of the synthetics it's the most compressible. Problem with down is that once it wets out it's insulation value starts to suck and the bag gets heavier and harder to get back into the stuff sack.. Twas Twight who said "that's more attention then I want to pay on a single piece of gear." However a well made down bag, while expensive, will last you many years. Mine was recently refurbished by TNF after 25 years of use. They brought it back to spec (0˚ Fahrenheit) and asked if I wanted it overstuffed to get it to -15˚-20˚. Hell yes I responded. They rebuilt the bag, replaced the zipper and overstuffed for $50. It still cinches down to the size of a football and is the bomb when it’s cold –n- nasty
Choss
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graniteboy
Aug 4, 2005, 5:58 PM
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Yes, you hafta keep the spindrift off, so your down doesn't get wet from the outside, but also, you haft akeep YOUR moisture from soaking it from the inside. One thing I find useful for a down bag in very cold weather is to always use a vapor barrier liner. Your insensible perspiration will soak a down bag into an ice cube over the course of a few weeks in below zero temps.
On the other hand, I'd bet that less than 1 percent of the alpine climbers in this forum have ever spent more than a week in sub zero temps. Most Climbers are only out on weekend jaunts, in which case, who really cares? just alot of techno drivel from people who don't really need all that fancy crap anyway.
Muir used a tar-oiled greatcoat. And he has a helluva lot more first ascents to his name than you're ever gonna.
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renohandjams
Aug 4, 2005, 6:54 PM
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Synthetic verses down?
DOWN!
I bought a synthetic bag first and regretted it. The amount of loft you get for weight doesn't really compare. Synthetic bags don't compress as easily, are usually heavier etc..
the whole wet thing isn't really a factor. I camped in the snow for 5 months straight and I never had a problem with a down bag getting wet, if it's wet you probably did something wrong. You can also use a vapor barrier to help reduce the amount of vapor your down bag gets at night.
I prefer Western Mountaineering sleeping bags, they use excellent shells, Dryloft, Microfiber, etc.. which are like Gortex but lighter, and their down is 800+ fill so it has awesome loft capabilities.
Buying a synthetic bag is a mistake in my opinion. Spend a little extra to get a down bag with a good shell. Mountain hardware even came out with a needle-hole-less bag with welded baffles so getting your down wet is even harder to do.
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atg200
Aug 4, 2005, 7:16 PM
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over the years you'll probably end up with a quiver of sleeping bags if you climb in a lot of different conditions. i use my 0 degree down bag for 90% of the trips i do, and if i could have just one bag for alpine climbing that is probably what i would get. i also recommend western mountaineering bags - very well made, though they are expensive.
synthetics do have their place, especially when climbing big walls. down is worthless when you are trying to stay warm in a sleeping bag on a portaledge in a rainstorm. the weight and bulk difference between a down bag and a primaloft bag is also not as big a deal with warmer bags as well, and i am much more likely to get a bag wet in 40 degree temps than i am in 0 degree temps. by the time the temp rating on a bag is 20 degrees or more i get primaloft.
the vapor barrier liner for a down bag is a very good suggestion, though they do give that sleeping in a sweaty garbage bag vibe. lots and lots of warmth for the weight though, and it'll keep a down bag much drier.
also, has anyone ever spent the night in a wet primaloft bag? it is a horribly miserable experience, and you still get really cold. best to be a bit careful and not get soaked, no matter what sort of bag you have.
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montaniero
Aug 5, 2005, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: I camped in the snow for 5 months straight and I never had a problem with a down bag getting wet, if it's wet you probably did something wrong.
:)
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graniteboy
Aug 5, 2005, 11:39 PM
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In reply to: the whole wet thing isn't really a factor. I camped in the snow for 5 months straight and I never had a problem with a down bag getting wet, if it's wet you probably did something wrong.
Yup. Big goddamned deal. Although you're right in that I (and maybe even you ) can sleep in down or extended periods without having a soaked bag, the question being asked is by someone who is more likely to get their bag wet. A Beginner, with little experience.
The line of reasoning you use is somehing like this: Racer X and Graniteboy can freesolo 10c offwidth (Big goddamned deal). They both say: "If you do it right, you don't need no stinkin rope". Therefore everyone should solo 10c offwidth. You hafta realize that making all inclusive statements about how down is always the answer, and that synthetics are useless is pretty damned retarded.
Here's a challenge, renohandjams: spend 5 months in climbing, sea kayaking, and off trail thrashing in southeast alaska/coastal BC (eg devil's thumb, fairweather, Waddington, etc) in a down bag. Then, (if you make it back), come tell me about how down is the only answer. Cause it ain't. It's great for some things, just like synthetics are great for some things.
My Point: Right tool for the right job. And that is dependent on where you're using it and who it is that's using it. There is no singular answer.
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