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climblouisiana
Jul 10, 2002, 9:40 PM
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For those that think rapping off is more dangerous, have your belayer hold your rope when you begin. If you have problems the belayer can lock you off by pulling down on the rope.
Preserving existing fixed anchors should be everyone's goal since only a few people have the tools, qualifications or permission from land management to replace them.
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bullit
Jul 10, 2002, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
"A lot of this is local custom. In SoCal it is accepted practice for the last person in the party to lower off the shuts, but for everyone else to lower or TR thru draws. Even the guidebooks explain that the "fixed gear is for lowering." The FAists, who wrote the guidebooks, maintain the routes. "
-Jay
If this is true, the First Ascentionists (FAists) need to get back out to Williamson Rock and replace some of their anchors, because they are severely worn.
Thanks for the info, I do not do a lot of sport, mostly Trad in JT, but I will keep this in mind for the future.
Scott
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jt512
Jul 10, 2002, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
If this is true, the First Ascentionists (FAists) need to get back out to Williamson Rock and replace some of their anchors, because they are severely worn.
Actually, I'm not aware of any that are severely worn. Which routes are you referring to?
-Jay
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frawg
Jul 10, 2002, 11:55 PM
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ok i probably didnt make myself clear.. I Lower off the chains at the top of the route. My belayer does not lower me. there is no friction appied to the chains when one does this.
peaze,
frawg
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elvislegs
Jul 17, 2002, 3:34 PM
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I will lower off the chains or links if I please, or I'll rap if I want to do that. If I see some chains that need replacing, I will do that too. It's worth the few dollars I might spend for the convenience for all. I will do my part to replace them just like I do my part to wear them down, what is the problem with that?
As far as safety goes, I feel you should have your belayer trained well enough that they understand you and know not to lower too fast etc.
I don't think this is as big an issue as it has been made out to be. Not everything is a 'killing the planet' issue. Sometimes a little common sense is all you need.
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crackaddict
Jul 17, 2002, 11:48 PM
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You know Sean I totally agree with you.
Everyone should take part in replacing anchors that are worn.
That is a logical solution. But the thing is that not many do this.
And do you trust everyone that climbs to change out anchors. Lets face it there are some out there that should'nt be messing with bolts and hangers.
I also think about the beginer climbers that come into this sport thinking that lowering through the anchors is the only way to get off route. Which is the reason I posted this topic. This came up because during an experience with a climbing partner that was taught this way.
I would sure hate for the hangers to fail on a climber that could have prevented it if they knew better.
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elvislegs
Jul 18, 2002, 10:59 PM
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No, not everyone can be trusted to replace anchors, but not everyone can be trusted to rapp instead of lower. I can't make people 'replace' any more than you can make them 'rapp', or Nader can make them drive electric cars, or the police can make them wear a seatbelt. I can't force people to be responsible or positive, so I do my part.
I agree, I don't want someone decking on tr because of bad anchors, but that someone (or someone in their climbing party) has the opportunity to examine those anchors and not set up that 'tr' if they think it is sketchy, or to back it up with gear etc.
As far as people being qualified to replace anchors... I don't know very many of the people who set the bolts on the sport routes I climb, (anybody who knows how to rappel can bolt), but I still climb on them because again, I make a judgement call. In climbing, you have your life in your hands, the hands of your belayers / partners, and the hands of The Almighty, am I right? So we make those calls everyday that we climb.
I guesse I just have a different solution to the same problem. By replacing, I know at least the anchors I am climbing on are safe, and then others can benifit from that later.
A very thought provoking post, nice that it hasn't digressed into personal attacks or arguments about off topic BS. Nice thread!
Ok, now everyone HUG.
Virtual beers all around.
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crackaddict
Jul 18, 2002, 11:19 PM
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AAHHHHH!!!
That was nice.
I like your attitude Sean.
I think that that is a good solution. I guess it is up to us who know how to replace anchors to do so.
I will adopt this style as well and do my part.
Kewl!
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bolder
Jul 24, 2002, 7:58 PM
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I don't think that you should top-rope through anchors, but lowering is perfectly acceptable. That is what the rings and chains are made for. IT doesn't damage them that much. Rapping overhanging routes while cleaning is hard and dangerous, unless you back up your rappel with a pruisk, but most sport climbers don't know how to do that.
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crackaddict
Jul 24, 2002, 10:43 PM
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What is the difference between lowering and TRing? Either way you are putting a load on the anchor and wearing the metal. Its actually the same thing. The only difference is that you are pulling loose rope through while the climber is climbing, and you are falling on it. A short hang will cause force but not the friction and wear that lowering off does.
Also lowering through an anchor puts a lateral load on the hangers. Remember the american triangle. Why don't you use it? Because it does not equalize the anchor and pulls the anchors towards each other instead of downward. Therefore causing an improper load on the anchors.
Read this
Most of us have enough sense to not use a binner after it is worn right.
Well how come people don't consider this same principal when it comes to anchors and chains?
Yes it is dangerous to rappel when cleaning an overhang. I don't like to do it that way either.
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-07-24 16:00 ]
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climbingpride
Jul 25, 2002, 11:11 PM
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What is a "rap hanger?" Is it a bolt or something at the top that you rap off of?
Just want to know so I don't do something wrong.
climbingpride
P.S. Just wondering.
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crackaddict
Jul 26, 2002, 4:51 AM
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Yes a rap hanger or hangers are at the top of the route. They are hangers that are thicker and bigger than regular hangers. There are also rap rings, chains, quick links, welded cold shuts, and, open shuts.
They are all so you can feed the rope through them and rappel off the route.
Heres the deal more and more people are lowering and TRing through these. And the wear on them is becomeing significant.
The whole lowering thing can be avoided while cleaning on vertical routes. But on overhanging routes it is harder to do. So lowering is just much easier.
My main concern is that beginers are TRing and lowering off of everything. People need to limit the routes they lower off of. If it can be avoided rap it. Alot of people say that rappeling is more dangerous. But think about it so is sawing through your only pieces of protection.
So if at all possible While TRing use some quick draws. And rap it on the vertical stuff.
I would hate to see someone get hurt or killed over something that could have been avoided.
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climblouisiana
Jul 26, 2002, 5:50 PM
Post #38 of 50
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"Rapping overhanging routes while cleaning is hard and dangerous"
Use your belayer to back you up when you rap. He can hold the rope and pull you closer to the rock. I've used this method on overhanging routes and it's not that difficult.
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climbingpride
Jul 29, 2002, 1:20 AM
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Few. I've put in draws evertime when raping off off a route. Once i used a sling and doubled rope rappeled down. So at least i know it is not me hurting the drilled pro. But thanks for pointing it out i will always keep it in mind.
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smithclimber
Jul 29, 2002, 7:38 AM
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I am with Crackaddict the whole way on this. I haven't had to say much since my last post since he is doing a fantastic job of conveying the sentiment of myself (and surely others).
Yes, every once in a while it is needed to be lowered by a belayer to clean very steep routes. It isn't needed all that often and besides, usually the routes are of a difficulty that keeps the masses from TRing the anchor to death. The point is, only do it when you absolutely have to.
Something to think about:
Even a lot of those routes you might initially think require having the belayer lower you (to ease the cleaning of gear) could simply be cleaned by the second (or you giving the route another lap) on the TR that now exists after your lead. This second person can clean the gear while on a TR and then THEY can clean the draws of the anchor and RAPPEL STRAIGHT DOWN having nothing more to clean, thus once again saving the anchor the extra wear.
As Crackaddict has so well explained, the problem lies primarily on the sport "trade routes" (pardon the expression) where everyone (newbies in particular) seems to just TR and do a bunch of lowering directly through the anchors.
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crackaddict
Jul 29, 2002, 10:36 PM
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Thanks Smithclimber,
I was begining to wonder if there were only a few out there that felt this way.
You know I like to do all types of climbing. I take good care of my gear and check it often. I treat it with respect because that stuff saves my life a lot!
And when I go to a sport area, those bolts are a part of my gear.
So when I see that those bolts have been missused and not treated with respect. It makes me kind of angry.
Yeah I can go change out hangers and add quick links. I have the knowledge and the experience.
But why should I have to carry around and buy all that crap?
Just because some lazy climber or some newbie was taught that way.
I am sorry but I just kind of find that disrespectful to others and your climbing areas.
And to me that is just lame!
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-07-29 15:37 ]
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crackaddict
Aug 11, 2002, 9:59 PM
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You are right rockdawg.
I think that the popularity has a great deal to do with it.
In two ways.
More people are climbing now so yes, more wear and tear on the bolts.
Also think about this. Most people start in the gym these days. Which is fine. But alot of the people that start out there lack the knowledge or don't learn what they should to climb outdoors. I can't tell you how many times I have seen these newbies out climbing with the price tags still taped to thier gear. Not that it means they cant climb outside. But it sure did'nt look like they were ready for it. To many are just going from the gym to outside without learning. Then these guys are teaching thier friends how to climb as well. So you see how these mistakes can occur.
But it is not just them. I've seen people who climb 5.12 that do the same.
I think it would be in everyones best intrest to rap off instead of lowering. At least it would increase the longevity of the bolts.
[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-08-11 15:01 ]
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threefox
Aug 11, 2002, 11:18 PM
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I just came from our local sport crag. Everything that has been said is equally true to my neck of the woods.
I personaly use an oversized Locking biner to run my rope through when I'm TR-ing.
I have noticed that the last link in several of the chained routes are worn pretty thin.
As far as the climbing education goes it really appears that there is a great lack of it anymore.
My dad and I spent 8 day's with the Teton Mtn Guides back in the 80's. We learned everything but sport. Now day's I see alot of young (both in age and experience) climbers who have about 1hrs worth of training. These folks are learn as they go but go far more than they learn if you get my drift.
They have gone climbing with someone who showed them how to tie a couple of knots and clip a draw into a bolt or chain.
Now obviously this works, I guess, but not too well when the stress hits. I can think of 5 occassions this summer when I have helped someone off of a route when it went wrong.
It surprised me how many people don't know how to rap, or even be properly lowered. I've seen people (almost every other time) at our local spot who take about 15 minutes trying to figure out the TR setup. It's darn** scary.
If you were to throw in a locking carabiner they would be so confussed they may have a break down.
I guess in conclusion, Since I'm Starting to Ramble, the lack of education is a big key.
It doesnt look like many of the new climbers know more than QuickDraw and TopRope.
Adam...
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therelic
Aug 12, 2002, 6:09 AM
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I agree with TRing on your own QD's to save the anchor. If you lower instead of rapelling you can do much damage to your rope by shredding it on abrasive rock.
I am not so sure about people replacing worn anchors. Most climbers don't have the equipment or knowledge to do it right. I have found most bolts after being in the rock a few years don't want to cooperate and generally a new bolt location or larger bolt must be used.
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earsen
Aug 12, 2002, 4:38 PM
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first off: Climbingpride, it's not nice and against the law to rape someone, whether your on a route or not.
Secondly,
Climbers: Rappel & quit being so friggin cheap that you won't sacrifice your own gear.
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ubotch
Aug 12, 2002, 11:27 PM
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If anyone sees someone doing this they should definetly let them know. I used to do it because I didn't know any better. Of course I stopped when I found out that wasn't a good idea but I wouldn't have minded if someone had corrected me sooner.
Not all of us have an experienced person to climb with, it is great to have a place like this to get tips from.
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earsen
Aug 14, 2002, 6:45 PM
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if you lower from the chains, your just wearing on the chains. Eventually, the chains need replacing or those too could become dangerous. RAPPEL OR USE YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT!!!! then your not screwing anything up.
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bolder
Aug 23, 2002, 2:49 PM
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Where do you guys come from? I learned to climb nine years ago and was taught to lower instead of rap. I have been to almost every major sport area in the west, Wild Iris, The Needles, American Fork, Logan Canyon, Red Rocks, Owens River Gorge, Smith Rock, Rifle, Shelf, Penitente, etc. and lowering is the norm. The wild Iris guidebook even gives you instructions on how to efficiently do it. If it offends you that much then don't come to Colorado because it is the norm here and has been since sport climbing was invented. Oh yeah, the route developers who write the guide books even tell you to lower off of the anchors. Since it was there hard work to put up the routes, I think that their opinion counts more than mine.
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jt512
Aug 23, 2002, 7:22 PM
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Here's what the Owen's River Gorge guidebook (Lewis, 9th ed.) says about lowering from the anchors:[blockquote]Most of the routes ... have open anchors at the top.... Simply pass the rope through the anchors and lower off.... To help reduce wear and tear, use quickdraws at the anchors; especially for extended top-roping sessions.[/blockquote]
So, it seems that lowering thru the anchors is considered acceptable at Owens, TRing thru quickdraws is encouraged.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-23 12:23 ]
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tigerbythetail
Sep 10, 2002, 8:20 PM
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Most sport areas in So Cal (and elsewhere too) are set up for convenience- that's the appeal of sport climbing- convenience. Some of the more popular routes/areas are ones that not only have good lines on good rock but that utilize open anchor systems - open shuts, quick-clips, fixed biners etc. instead of a a more traditional closed system.
Owens, as pointed out, is one area like this. This convenience has a downside though, because the anchors wear faster. Owens does have an anchor kitty at Wilson's to help maintain the anchors- if you climb there pitch in what you can. The first ascentionists spent their time, money and immense effort to create a sport area second to none...a few bucks here or there is worth it to maintain that convenience. As stated the leader should put their draws on the anchor and lower off. Subsequent climbers should TR or lower off their gear with the last climber lowering off the anchors. If the last person wants to rap that cool, but lowering is acceptable.
Lastly, if the anchors were more durable this wearing out would not be the problem it is. When putting up new routes I like to use a minimum of 3/8" high-test chain- this is much stronger and durable than the standard proof coil. It's grade 40 chain and has much more carbon in the steel so it will last way longer than the normal stuff (even nicer is grade 70 which probably won't wear out in 20 years). I expect people to lower and TR off the anchors, so try to build in an extra measure of durability.
[ This Message was edited by: tigerbythetail on 2002-09-10 13:21 ]
[ This Message was edited by: tigerbythetail on 2002-09-10 13:22 ]
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