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jimdavis
Sep 25, 2005, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: While slow rapping is certainly a hastle and not enjoyable, with new climbers, I would rather take the extra precaution and use my method than try to rush newbies
Right on!
For that method though, why not just anchor them in with a sling, then not worry about the extra fig-8 on the anchor? I've seen that as an organizational trick for more than 2 climbers...but I don't see how it's easier for a newbie to get down rather than just unclipping their sling.
Thanks,
Jim
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misanthropic_nihilist
Sep 25, 2005, 4:41 PM
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The way I teach rappelling to multiple students with 2 instructors is:
"Stack" the students on the double rappel line with extended rappels. Do this by extending everyone's rappel, and all clipping into the rope, so they are standing in a line. This way, every gets set up at once, and as soon as one student is off rappel, the next can be on rappel right away. One instructor is at the top, pretty much just giving emotional support to the students (since everyone is already rigged & checked out). The other instructor is on the ground giving a fireman's belay.
If you are the only experienced rappeller, you can get all the students 'stacked,' then tell them not to touch any carabiners/knots and that they will all be rappelling one by one. You will rappel first, then they will follow. Your weight on the rope below them acts as a fireman's belay. Doing a "rappel ground school" prior to this will help them understand exactly what to do.
Note that this setup is not 'institutional', in the fact that if something happens (student's hair stuck in ATC, etc), there is no easy way out. An 'institutional' setup require that rappel students either be on belay via top rope (in addition to their rap rope), or that their rappel line is lowerable (i.e. tied off with an easily accessible munter mule, with enough rope on the non-weighted side to lower someone at any rappel height to the ground.
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iltripp
Sep 25, 2005, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: While slow rapping is certainly a hastle and not enjoyable, with new climbers, I would rather take the extra precaution and use my method than try to rush newbies Right on! For that method though, why not just anchor them in with a sling, then not worry about the extra fig-8 on the anchor? I've seen that as an organizational trick for more than 2 climbers...but I don't see how it's easier for a newbie to get down rather than just unclipping their sling. Thanks, Jim
Perhaps I explained poorly. The fig-8 is not to anchor them in, but to create a point for me to rappel from. Since they are already set up to rappel, if I don't tie the 8-on-a-bight, I would be hanging directly off their ATC. I've never actually tried this, but it seems like it would be awkward and uncomfortable. Are we talking about the same thing?
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airborne_r6
Sep 25, 2005, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: I would be hanging directly off their ATC. I've never actually tried this, but it seems like it would be awkward and uncomfortable. Are we talking about the same thing?
We tried this once, don't ask why because I don't remember, but it wasn't that bad you just had to get the person in a spot where they could stand comfortably that allowed the rope to be tight on the anchors. That way the rappeler was hanging of the anchors and not off the ATC. I wouldn't recommend it though because every time the lower person moved it jerked the upper person around.
Doesn't the way you are recommending require a rope four times longer than the height of the rappel? Otherwise I think that is a great idea.
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jimdavis
Sep 25, 2005, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: While slow rapping is certainly a hastle and not enjoyable, with new climbers, I would rather take the extra precaution and use my method than try to rush newbies Right on! For that method though, why not just anchor them in with a sling, then not worry about the extra fig-8 on the anchor? I've seen that as an organizational trick for more than 2 climbers...but I don't see how it's easier for a newbie to get down rather than just unclipping their sling. Thanks, Jim Perhaps I explained poorly. The fig-8 is not to anchor them in, but to create a point for me to rappel from. Since they are already set up to rappel, if I don't tie the 8-on-a-bight, I would be hanging directly off their ATC. I've never actually tried this, but it seems like it would be awkward and uncomfortable. Are we talking about the same thing?
Yep, we are. If you have them extend their rappell with a sling or something, it won't pull on them at all.
I guess it just really depends on the situation: how many people, size of the ledge, location of the anchor. I guess your trick could work best on those smaller ledges.
Cheers,
Jim
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iltripp
Sep 25, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I would be hanging directly off their ATC. I've never actually tried this, but it seems like it would be awkward and uncomfortable. Are we talking about the same thing? We tried this once, don't ask why because I don't remember, but it wasn't that bad you just had to get the person in a spot where they could stand comfortably that allowed the rope to be tight on the anchors. That way the rappeler was hanging of the anchors and not off the ATC. I wouldn't recommend it though because every time the lower person moved it jerked the upper person around. Doesn't the way you are recommending require a rope four times longer than the height of the rappel? Otherwise I think that is a great idea.
No... I think you are misunderstanding the situation.
1) You rig the rope just like normal
2) set up your noob to rappel in the normal manner
3) take the rope below his device, tie a bight, clip it into the anchors
4) set yourself up to rappel below the bight (i.e. the bight basically places your weight on the anchor instead of the noob)
5) rappel down to the next anchors
6) unclip, shout off rappel, and give a firemans break to the noob
7) while he's rapping, get one end of the rope threaded through the rings, so its ready to pull the second he is done rapping.
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iltripp
Sep 25, 2005, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: While slow rapping is certainly a hastle and not enjoyable, with new climbers, I would rather take the extra precaution and use my method than try to rush newbies Right on! For that method though, why not just anchor them in with a sling, then not worry about the extra fig-8 on the anchor? I've seen that as an organizational trick for more than 2 climbers...but I don't see how it's easier for a newbie to get down rather than just unclipping their sling. Thanks, Jim Perhaps I explained poorly. The fig-8 is not to anchor them in, but to create a point for me to rappel from. Since they are already set up to rappel, if I don't tie the 8-on-a-bight, I would be hanging directly off their ATC. I've never actually tried this, but it seems like it would be awkward and uncomfortable. Are we talking about the same thing? Yep, we are. If you have them extend their rappell with a sling or something, it won't pull on them at all. I guess it just really depends on the situation: how many people, size of the ledge, location of the anchor. I guess your trick could work best on those smaller ledges. Cheers, Jim
Ah... now I see what you mean about the sling. I've never extended a rappel with a sling, but I'll try that next time. I also like that cordellette trick you mentioned before. Is it awkward trying to rappel with two people hanging off the rope?
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jimdavis
Sep 25, 2005, 8:40 PM
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It's a little weird geting over the edge, then when you get down and have to still rappell even thought YOU aren't weighting the rope. It's best in vertical or less than vertical raps.
Cheers,
Jim
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airborne_r6
Sep 26, 2005, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: No... I think you are misunderstanding the situation. 3) take the rope below his device, tie a bight, clip it into the anchors 4) set yourself up to rappel below the bight (i.e. the bight basically places your weight on the anchor instead of the noob)
I was. For some reason I was thinking pull the brake end back up and tie the figure-8 at the ends of the rope. I don't know what I was thinking before, it makes a lot of sense now and I have needed it in the past. Thanks for the great idea.
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philbox
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Sep 26, 2005, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: http://outdoordads.org/...limbing/grouprap.jpg Le'ts hope this generates some good disucssion. If anyone sees something lethally wrong with this rig, please do us all a favor by pointing it out. If you find it useful, give that a mention as well. Wind at your back, johnGo
Back to the OP picture. I think a better setup would be to clip the two figure eight knots (clove hitches) directly into the power point. As it is set up redundancy is compromised and there would definitely be extension if one arm failed in the anchor. Clipping the abseil line in as shown in the above pic also places stress on the knot i/e the knot will be being dragged apart in a way that the knot was not designed to be loaded in. The knot used is not an omnidirectional knot. Clipping in to the powerpoint is far superior if this setup were to be used.
All the same with a little tidying up this setup could work quite well.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 26, 2005, 2:29 AM
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A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread.
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curt
Sep 26, 2005, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread.
Do you mean me too? I posted in this thread--but I think I only to flame it. :lol:
Curt
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iltripp
Sep 26, 2005, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread.
Gee... that was helpful. Jacka$$
There were quite a few decent ideas on this thread, and it's been a pretty good discussion. Unless you have worthwhile input, why don't you go play somewhere else.
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jimdavis
Sep 26, 2005, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread.
And my advice to any beginner would be to ignore your frequently useless, unsubstantiated posts.
Jim
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philbox
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Sep 26, 2005, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread.
In reply to: alpnclmbr1 sig, On a mission to combat misinformation on this site. 20 years climbing experience, all forms
Your mission is failing in its execution. Very happy for you to be on this mission of course. You will need to bring to the thread a little more of an explanation so that the beginners know exactly why you would make that statement. Just telling someone not to is not a good enough reason for them not to if you get my drift.
Please add something positive otherwise your message is pretty much lost on your audience.
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saltamonte
Sep 26, 2005, 2:54 AM
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. near here is a great canyoneering run called matacanes http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Area.php?AreaID=8379 , 5 hours in a hurry three big rappels. and 2 dozen waterfalls to jump from 2 meters to 12 including one in the dark of one of two places the river goes underground. last time i was there i noticed another group using basically that set up I appologize for not remembering which knot they used but the set up was basically the same to fix each side for independent rappels. it worked very well. I will likely use it next time we go. we ussually have a group of 5-10 that is a major time and boredom saver.
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lewisiarediviva
Sep 26, 2005, 3:57 AM
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Hello? Do the op's rap idea. Looks like it would work great to me. As long as the last person to rap redoes the whole sh'bang so that after he raps he can pull the rope through.
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jimdavis
Sep 26, 2005, 3:59 AM
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In reply to: Ah... now I see what you mean about the sling. I've never extended a rappel with a sling, but I'll try that next time. I also like that cordellette trick you mentioned before. Is it awkward trying to rappel with two people hanging off the rope?
Another trick you might like, that I use.
Take a 4' runner (hopefully dyneema cause they rock) and girth hitch it to your belay loop. Tie a knot about half way up and clip your rappell device around it, so your biner is going through both sides. Use the left over material and put a locker in it for your personal anchor attachment. When you leave the station, clip it back to your belay loop, and you'll have an extended rappell (makes it easier to use a FH backup right off your belay loop), easy anchoring sling, and redundancy all in the same sling (minimal belay loop clutter).
I will admit I got a good deal of that info from the back of a Petzl catalog, except for clipping around the knot for redundancy.
Cheers,
Jim
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iltripp
Sep 26, 2005, 4:25 AM
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^^^^
Nice... I'll try that next time I'm out climbing.
Thanks Jim
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trevzilla
Sep 26, 2005, 4:43 AM
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Just thought I'd put in my $0.02. I like it. I often go with big groups. And I think the setup is pretty fool proof. I'll be using it in the future. Although, I'll probably use a clove hitch as instead of the eights.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 26, 2005, 5:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: A great example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. My advice to any beginner would be to avoid climbing with anyone who thinks like the people in this thread. In reply to: alpnclmbr1 sig, On a mission to combat misinformation on this site. 20 years climbing experience, all forms Your mission is failing in its execution. Very happy for you to be on this mission of course. You will need to bring to the thread a little more of an explanation so that the beginners know exactly why you would make that statement. Just telling someone not to is not a good enough reason for them not to if you get my drift. Please add something positive otherwise your message is pretty much lost on your audience.
I will add something useful.
The fact that you as a guide do not have a problem with the many ridiculous climbing related comments...... And you are a guide no less. Shame on you!
Jessus
A guide suggests that simultaneous single line raps is the answer for beginning rappelers....
Oh, and that rigging raps off of a cordelette instead of using the fixed system speeds things up????
I have never met a climber that would not immediately see the truth of those two propositions. I guess this is some kind of special place. (as far as the posters anyway)
ps. I still think my original comment was more to the point.
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jimdavis
Sep 26, 2005, 6:02 AM
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In reply to: Oh, and that rigging raps off of a cordelette instead of using the fixed system speeds things up????
Hmm, well:
1: considering that you have to go from a belay anchor to a rappell at some point, an anchor like that is probably there for the first rap.
2: You could rig that setup with a sling to, easilly. And quickly at that.
3: It doesn't take that long to create an anchor like that even with a cordellette. And considering how much that could speed things up, under the right circumstances...I dont think it's that unreasonable to do.
But why would you have an anchor like that there anyway? It's not like you just belayed someone up, or had to anchor a large group of people into 2 bolts/ rings..... :roll:
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iltripp
Sep 26, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: I will add something useful.
Not really... The two criticisms you made below have already been covered, multiple times. Moreover, those were by no means the only suggestions made in this thread.
In reply to: The fact that you as a guide do not have a problem with the many ridiculous climbing related comments...... And you are a guide no less. Shame on you!
The fact that you claim to know better, but choose to insult everyone involved rather than enlighten them shows that you are less concerned with "combatting misinformation" than you are with inflating your ego. Shame on you!
In reply to: Jessus A guide suggests that simultaneous single line raps is the answer for beginning rappelers....
As I said, multiple people have pointed out the shortcomings of simultaneous single line raps for beginners. Those comments, made by myself and others, were attempts at constructive criticism of the OP. They were helpful. Your drivel, on the other hand, was a waste of the time it took you to type it. Rather than help anyone with decent constructive criticism, you insulted everyone, including those of us who were trying to make helpful suggestions to the OP's systems.
In reply to: Oh, and that rigging raps off of a cordelette instead of using the fixed system speeds things up????
Again, you could have posted this as constructive criticism. Moreover, while building an anchor with a cordelette to rappel may not be the most efficient way to do things, it certainly isn't dangerous. In a situation with numerous people simul-rapping (just not noobs), I could see the value in this set-up. I doubt that I would use it, but I don't think it's worthy of such a condescending response.
In reply to: I have never met a climber that would not immediately see the truth of those two propositions. I guess this is some kind of special place. (as far as the posters anyway)
Some kind of "special place"? Now you're just babbling. Does having your head stuck up your a$$ make it difficult to articulate?
In reply to: ps. I still think my original comment was more to the point.
And I stand by my original response: Jacka$$
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philbox
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Sep 26, 2005, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: I will add something useful. The fact that you as a guide do not have a problem with the many ridiculous climbing related comments...... And you are a guide no less. Shame on you!
Point is that I am not locked into only one mindset and way of doing things, don`t take that as me suggesting that you are. I can see worth in any system and I take systems and use them for my own ends. I am always open to a better way of doing things, that said when it comes to safety I am paranoid. I can see worth in the setup and so I say so. Yep, it may not be for beginners but for a set of experienced climbers it may have worth. Just not exactly as it is depicted.
In reply to: Jessus A guide suggests that simultaneous single line raps is the answer for beginning rappelers....
Agreed. A beginner rapeller should definitely be on both an abseil rope and a top belay, the abseil rope should most definitely be a releasable system. Mind you rapelling aint rocket science and thus after serving ones apprenticeship learning how to abseil one can then graduate in a very short time to being fairly independant.
In reply to: Oh, and that rigging raps off of a cordelette instead of using the fixed system speeds things up????
Also agreed, thus my suggestion to clip directly into the powerpoint which would negate the need for a cord/webolette. Powerpoint in this case being the fixed mallion or other such fixed gear on the end of the chains.
In reply to: I have never met a climber that would not immediately see the truth of those two propositions. I guess this is some kind of special place. (as far as the posters anyway) ps. I still think my original comment was more to the point.
You might but most don`t and thus your message is lost on your audience. Thanks for taking the trouble to clarify your point. I hate to use cliches but you catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.
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david.yount
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Oct 21, 2005, 5:08 PM
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This is ingenious and safe; use it and enjoy. I like the detail of threading the line through the rap rings (or similar) such that the last person does not need to feed the rope, it’s already rigged; just unclip and untie the two sides.
I’d prefer to replace the Figure-8 knots with the Alpine Butterfly.
http://www.animatedknots.com/...pinebutterflyR10.gif
The Alpine Butterfly does not jam, typically it’s significantly easier to untie. Also easier to untie than clove hitches, in this rigging. How to tie.
I’d also prefer to clip the two knots to the powerpoint, rather than each to its single leg of the anchor matrix.
I've been considering a rigging just like this for some time. Cayoneering in Utah, with the longer drops, in moderate to large groups, the rappels can really absorb time. In my experience simul-rappelling does not work well at all for canyoneering rappels. I like slot canyons, the rappels are tight, not providing for comfort for either person on a simul rappel. This may seen easy to overcome, with appropriate positioning and communication, and getting to know each other's style in rappelling, but trust me, until you've tried simul-rappelling in a slot canyon, it's significantly different than virtually all climbing environments involving rappelling (unless you've tried simul-rappelling in a squeeze chimney).
david yount.
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