|
foilball
Oct 4, 2005, 4:52 AM
Post #1 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 29, 2004
Posts: 29
|
I've heard of tying in with a double bowline with a backup so it's easier to untie after some whippers. Have any of you heard of the double bowline with a dogbone? Does this defeat the easy-untie-idness of the bowline? Is it safe? The dogbone is kind of hard to describe, I hope someone knows what I'm talking about.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Oct 4, 2005, 5:21 AM
Post #2 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
In reply to: I've heard of tying in with a double bowline with a backup so it's easier to untie after some whippers.
last time i checked, any version of the bowline tie-in is easy to untie after being loaded- that's the whole point of using one instead of a fig-8.
also, with bowlines, a backup is mandatory- otherwise the knot can easily untie itself, unlike the fig-8. not sure what a 'dog-bone' backup is, but i doubt its much more useful than a regular backup to the knot.
|
|
|
|
|
wonderwoman
Oct 4, 2005, 12:55 PM
Post #3 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2002
Posts: 4275
|
I've looked up the double bowline in two of my books since someone mentioned tying in with it. One said that it was so easily untied that people had died from it coming undone. It went on to say 'for this reason the double bowline is not recommended or shown in this book'. The other book showed it and then outlined 3 reasons why it was better to tie in with a figure 8.
I've never heard of a dogbone, though. Now I'll have to go look that up, too! :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Oct 4, 2005, 2:06 PM
Post #4 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
I believe the dogbone is for your ever-so-patient crag dog who is waiting for you to come off that route that you are working to death. Do you really need to work that move for 45 minutes? Get down and feed your dog!
Oh, and tie in with a figure 8 (my 3 cents)
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Oct 4, 2005, 3:11 PM
Post #5 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
The first know I ever used to tie in with was a nice big granny knot. Fortunately an instructor stopped things and taught me the error of my ways!. I used the bowline with a backup knot for years. When accidents began being reported from the bowline slipping out I switched to the fig. 8. I still use a bowline but primarily for non crititcal applications.
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 4, 2005, 3:17 PM
Post #6 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
In reply to: I've looked up the double bowline in two of my books since someone mentioned tying in with it. One said that it was so easily untied that people had died from it coming undone. It went on to say 'for this reason the double bowline is not recommended or shown in this book'. The other book showed it and then outlined 3 reasons why it was better to tie in with a figure 8.
Get yourself a better knot book. Whatever you're looking at, they're lousy if that's all they say.
Looks like the OP is going to have to explain or show a dogbone since nobody seems to have heard of it.
|
|
|
|
|
abe_ascends
Oct 4, 2005, 3:37 PM
Post #7 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2005
Posts: 367
|
I say just use a fig.8. It's not too hard to untie, even after whippers if you 'break' the 8 in the right way when you want to untie it. Besides, when it's tied correctly, it's very obvious, and the back-up is less important... it's use is more for getting the excess rope out of your face. My 2 cents.
As for a 'dog-bone', I can't say I've ever heard use of the term outside of discussions about 'dogs' or 'quickdraws', although it sounds to me like it's being used as another word for backup or keeper knot.
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Oct 4, 2005, 3:51 PM
Post #8 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
I've heard of a dogbone knot but have never used one not seen one used.
I would rec. usig the fig. 8 knot.
|
|
|
|
|
forkliftdaddy
Oct 4, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #9 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2003
Posts: 408
|
A friend showed me a version of the double bowline that involved threading through a clove hitch (instead of two simple loops). It was very hard to untie after a fall because the clove hitch would cinch up tightly when loaded.
|
|
|
|
|
davidorchard
Oct 4, 2005, 4:42 PM
Post #10 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2002
Posts: 144
|
as everyone has said, use a figure 8. if you are new to climbing, it is the easiest to check and let your partner check.
the problem with a bowline is that everyone seems to have a special way to tie it and it always looks differently. if you have had someone (hopefully that knows what they are doing) show you a bowline and you feel comfortable with it, have a ball. just make sure the back up knot is tight, because the bowline can easily untie itself.
i like the bowline because it is easy to untie and there is no knot left in the rope after it comes off the harness. just be careful. i haven't a clue what a dog bone is (other than for dogs).
|
|
|
|
|
afiveonbelay
Oct 4, 2005, 4:57 PM
Post #11 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2003
Posts: 178
|
All knots must be "read" in order to verify they have been tied correctly. Sometimes they have to be "dressed" in order to read them or to maximize their strength/minimize weakness.
I have used bowlines for a wide variety of applications for over thirty years. They do not fail or come untied if correctly tied. Bowlines however do take a level of experience to dress and read properly and I think the natural conservatisim in the climbing community has kept it's use restricted. I consider the bowline one of five essential knots in climbing and use it regularly.
The term DOGBONE may be some sort of modified sheepshank to keep the tail tight and tidy. I have seen the term used in conjuction with a limiter or movement constrictor such as a dogbone linkage.
|
|
|
|
|
chemicalclimber
Oct 4, 2005, 5:11 PM
Post #12 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 79
|
In reply to: A friend showed me a version of the double bowline that involved threading through a clove hitch (instead of two simple loops). It was very hard to untie after a fall because the clove hitch would cinch up tightly when loaded.
Ah yes, the water bowline. My tie-in knot of choice is the double bowline with a backup on the inside. Still easy to untie, but it really isn't going anywhere. Those that have distrust for the bowline are probably only referring to the single bowline, which is indeed (probably, at least) going to get you killed without a backup.
|
|
|
|
|
climbingnurse
Oct 4, 2005, 5:18 PM
Post #13 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 420
|
I'll add myself to the long list of folks who don't know what you mean by dogbone.
I also tie in with the double bowline with a backup. Basically I tie a bowline, pass the free end back through the waist and legs of my harness, retrace the bowline, and then tie the free end into a double fisherman's at the top of the knot.
For me to come untied using that setup a total of 3 knots would have to come lose. I figure I'm just as likely to get hit by a meteor.
|
|
|
|
|
saskclimber
Oct 4, 2005, 6:06 PM
Post #14 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2004
Posts: 548
|
just tie a normal 8 and stick the tail end through the inside circle of the top of the 8. I can't remember what that kind of finish is called, but yeah...all you gotta do to loosen the knot is yank the tail end out and viola..
|
|
|
|
|
bstokes4782
Oct 5, 2005, 2:14 AM
Post #15 of 15
(1966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 4, 2005
Posts: 18
|
Oh I'm about to get Flamed.............
Way back in '93, my best friend (Joe) and I were really into sport rappelling. All we wanted to do was to jump off of tall things we weren't suppose to.....when we weren't suppose to. Buildings, bridges, parking garages, water towers........it didn't matter. Knot of choice for our anchor.....The Double Bowline. It was easy to tie, easy to undo, and it allowed us to control how much line we let out (it was the knot we were taught). Simple.....
Then that day happened.........We were on some land we weren't suppose to be on.....bouncing a 150' cliff we had no business being on. The only place to anchor was a tree on top. It was in a real awkward place. The only way (that I could see at the time) I could tie it was by wrapping my arms around the tree (like a bear hug) and peeking around to my right side. Once I was done, I tied the back up some 20 yards behind us. We had always practiced "The Rule"...."You tie it....You fly it". This time was different. While I getting "geared up" I saw Joe feeding his "8" into the rope........
I told him to hang on and that I would go first. He just smiled and said "You always tie 'em....I trust you". He leaned back to get his "L" and wooooosh.....He vanished. I dove for the rope (if I would have grabbed it, it would probably snatched me over) and missed. I scrambled to edge and looked down. About 20' down I saw my best friend in the world dangling on the rope. He was shaking like a naked Chihuahua in Denali. I finally talked him down. After re-doing the anchor, I got to the bottom. He was a basket case and so was I. I just about killed a man that was like a brother to me.
We got rid of all of our gear and never got near a rope again.......until spring of 2005. We (Yes... We're still like Brothers) went to visit a friend in DC. He's the guy that taught us to rappel back in the early 90's. He took us to Carderock and introduced us to rock climbing. He learned to do things the right way.
Now we are in our mid 30's and climbing every weekend. But I can tell you, I've gotten training....done research......and take every single precaution in the world....and still, every time I start to descent, I think about that day.......
The bottom line is this......We did everything wrong.......nothing right.....We we're stupid....... I still use the double bowline sometimes. When tied correctly, it works great.....but if tied wrong, it's one heck of a slip knot............
Oh, and in case you haven't got it yet......use a figure 8 knot......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
