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takeme
Oct 5, 2005, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bolt it, and they will come And when they do, 1 rap line is going to get a litle crowded. So, lets put up another. Domino theory, seen it way to many times. In wilderness areas? Multiple bolted rap routes? You seen this many times? I sure haven't. Not in the back country. Not even once. DMT
I haven't seen it either, but ironically if someone bolted the descent in question, I'm pretty sure that would be the case on Wolf's Head!
All other arguments aside, I still believe that, on this particular descent, there's gonna be tat everywhere regardless. That's certainly true of the Diamond and the Petite Grepon, which have difficult to follow bolted rappel routes and--tat everywhere. On Wolf's Head, factor in the apparent existence of another bolted rap line and I think that would make adding bolts to this descent pretty pointless.
I have to admit that Wolf's Head is so popular (for an alpine climb that's 11 miles from the car, anyway) that adding bolts may not noticeably increase traffic. Although the descent is by far the most frequent bitched about aspect of the climb, both by those who've done it and those who aspire to.
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ddriver
Oct 5, 2005, 2:02 PM
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In reply to: All other arguments aside, I still believe that, on this particular descent, there's gonna be tat everywhere regardless. That's certainly true of the Diamond and the Petite Grepon, which have difficult to follow bolted rappel routes and--tat everywhere. On Wolf's Head, factor in the apparent existence of another bolted rap line and I think that would make adding bolts to this descent pretty pointless. I have to admit that Wolf's Head is so popular (for an alpine climb that's 11 miles from the car, anyway) that adding bolts may not noticeably increase traffic. Although the descent is by far the most frequent b---- about aspect of the climb, both by those who've done it and those who aspire to.
The rap routes on the Diamond and Petit are relatively new, no? At least that's true for the Diamond, and I guess I don't follow how the Petit has a "rap line" anyway since there's only, what, one rap. At any rate, all the tat on those descents is probably older than the bolted rap routes.
As for Wolf's Head, its been a while but I don't recall a true bolted rap line and the lack of one is what initiated this inane conversation. In my opinion, if you put in a bolted rap line there you won't see any proliferation of tat, as long as the start of the descent is obvious and unchanged. I also highly doubt that the route has such a reputation for a difficult descent that its keeping the hordes away.
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murf
Oct 5, 2005, 2:26 PM
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In reply to: I have to admit that Wolf's Head is so popular (for an alpine climb that's 11 miles from the car, anyway) that adding bolts may not noticeably increase traffic. Although the descent is by far the most frequent b---- about aspect of the climb, both by those who've done it and those who aspire to.
And bolts aren't going to make it any easier...
The fact of the matter may very well be that bolts are a wonderful alternative to the current situation. That being said, I've noticed that people aren't content to leave well enough alone. Lets say Wolf's Head has now has bolted raps... Maybe they should just go down the south face? What else in the area needs some new anchor? After all, why not, Wolf's Head has 'em.
As so many have stated, it is all push, pull, and fitful starts that change climbing. What is frowned upon today may be de rigor tomorrow. I'll be content to drag my heals a bit and add some friction to the change. My personal actions might not change anything in the long term, but might allow plenty of time to think about it.
Murf
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microbarn
Oct 5, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Went to seneca the other weekend with a guide. I saw something he called "super thread" if I remember correctly. Basicly, it seemed to be VERY sturdy static line protected from UV and sap by webbing. There were two strands of super thread around a tree with rap rings. The webbing was a color similar to the tree bark.
I personally see this super thread option as an equivalent to bolts. I think that the OP would still be happy because there is drastically less visual impact. How does everyone feel about this option?
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ddriver
Oct 5, 2005, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: Went to seneca the other weekend with a guide. I saw something he called "super thread" if I remember correctly. Basicly, it seemed to be VERY sturdy static line protected from UV and sap by webbing. There were two strands of super thread around a tree with rap rings. The webbing was a color similar to the tree bark. I personally see this super thread option as an equivalent to bolts. I think that the OP would still be happy because there is drastically less visual impact. How does everyone feel about this option?
Apples to oranges.
You could compare trees to bolts, but you won't find many while descending Wolf's Head.
Now, your superthread might be preferable to chains but I doubt anyone plans on installing chains in the cirque.
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iceisnice
Oct 5, 2005, 3:45 PM
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grayhghost, have you been to the cirque in the summer in the last 4 yrs? the fist time i climbed there was on a few trips in 99. saw a couple of people. now, it IS a circus. You must be hitting some pretty sweet times of year to be there when there is little traffic. on an average day in the cirque you will see at least have a dozen GROUPS. of the times i've been there in the last couple of years there has never been less than 20 people there. HUGE difference from the past. i'm nost complaining about that. there is a reason there are so many people there. but, your arguement about a large talus field (?????? there are almost no talus fields in the cirque...at least compared to other ranges) stopping the cirque form becoming overrun is already disproven. it is getting more and more traffic each year. by the way, anyone know if there are plans to make a designated camping area? right now you can camp anywhere and its starting to make an impact.
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ambler
Oct 5, 2005, 3:48 PM
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A couple of practical thoughts on this general topic:
1. There's a large difference IMHO between equipping rap stations for a standard "back side" descent route, and equipping similar stations along the climbing route itself. The first might just be replacing old tat, making the descent a bit safer but otherwise unchanged. Bolting rap anchors along the climbing route itself, on the other hand, in some cases dumbs down the whole experience by eliminating any need for commitment and anchor building. I've been sorry to see this happen to some of my own routes, where fine gear anchors and several back-side descent options already existed.
2. We have other choices in between leaving a tatty mess of slings and blasting in shiny new bolts. Why not try to clean up messy anchors, when you can? Cut off old slings, check out what they were tied to, and leave one or two new ones of your own. Anchors grow ugly because climbers add more slings without subtracting the ones they don't trust.
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grayhghost
Oct 5, 2005, 4:11 PM
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iceisnice,
Your argument is counter-intuitive. If there are too many people in the Cirque now does it not make sense to put in bolts to define a standard rappel? Why have dozens of people each establishing their own wandering, sling-anchor rappels all over the standard descent when you can have one well-defined bolt-ancher system?
My point before still stands. There is no increase or decrease in adventure if there were to be bolts on the Wolf's Head descent. You still need a dozen slings to lead the pitches, it's just a choice as to whether or not you believe leaving a rainbow of tat behind when you leave is a sustainable practice.
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iceisnice
Oct 5, 2005, 4:19 PM
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grayhghost, i'm not saying there are too many people. otherwise i would stop going there myself. i'm just against bolts....period. the pro bolts people like to make comments like "tons of rainbow tat EVERYWHERE!!" because it helps their arguement. as if that was the only option when it comes to slings. it doesn't have to be like that. dark colored tat slings that are taken care of by the climbers themselves is the least destructive, permanent, and noticable alternative....to me. but, that being said, if you've read my previous posts, by arguement against bolts isn't because of aesthetics....its more of an eithics issue to me. that's all.
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arrow
Oct 5, 2005, 4:26 PM
Post #60 of 167
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grayghost wrote:
In reply to: There is no increase or decrease in adventure if there were to be bolts
I disagree. For me not bolting means more adventure. I think some hardmen argue against bolting just so they can perpetuate their hardman status (ego maniacs) but for me it's about the adventure.
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microbarn
Oct 5, 2005, 4:39 PM
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Arrow,
What you say can't be true. If there is a BOMBER tree with BOMBER slings, you see more adventure in your climb compared to bolts? Your anchor makes that much difference?
If that is true, I would be willing to install slings on every tree in your back yard. (for a small fee) You can have 40 adventures every single night. Rap off all the trees on level ground. Get your heart rate up before you head in for a night of rest.
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grayhghost
Oct 5, 2005, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: i'm just against bolts....period.
http://images.google.com/...l_1280_001.sized.jpg
"The greatest art is to attain a balance, a balance between all opposites, a balance between all polarities. Imbalance is the disease and balance is health. Imbalance is neurosis, and balance is well-being."
-Osho
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landgolier
Oct 5, 2005, 5:03 PM
Post #63 of 167
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In reply to: grayghost wrote: In reply to: There is no increase or decrease in adventure if there were to be bolts I disagree. For me not bolting means more adventure. I think some hardmen argue against bolting just so they can perpetuate their hardman status (ego maniacs) but for me it's about the adventure.
Leading up into areas where pro is unknown or questionable and you have to rely on your skills is adventure. Leaning back on BS anchors while rapping off and wondering if today's your day or not is russian roulette. If somebody bolts rap anchors on something and deprives you of the adventure of rapping off of tat, just drive 100 all the way home with no seatbelt or headlights, that will put the adventure back into getting off the route and back home safe.
Also, good points above about rap anchors vs. anchors that could be used on the way up. And yeah, in a perfect world we'd all carry neutral colored bail slings and cut all the old ones off before we went for it, and we should try to get people to do this. However, the reality is that most anchors still look like the back of George Clinton's head.
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iceisnice
Oct 5, 2005, 5:08 PM
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hehe....back of George Clinton's head......that's funny. do you think it is unreasonable for the climbing community to make more of an effort the reduce "rainbow tats"? i for one have been a bit inspired by this thread (and for those who know me i'm not easity inspired by anyone) to make the extra effort improve some rap anchors. yeah, that means carrying more slings and ruining my minimalist lightweight ethics (hehe), but it seems a lot of people feel strongly about this issue.
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microbarn
Oct 5, 2005, 5:18 PM
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While we are conceeding victories to the other side. I also used to be indifferent as to how permanent rap points were equipped. I haven't argued much in the thread, but I feel the super thread option gained some respect in my mind. I still don't know which way I would sway in any given situation, but I can understand a bit better.
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renohandjams
Oct 5, 2005, 5:21 PM
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I think a single bolt is better than a sun baked rats nest as far as eye sores go. Interesting problem. I'll put this into my mental file of wether or not we should allow legal abortions. Its complicated, and everyone has an opinion.
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dingus
Oct 5, 2005, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: i for one have been a bit inspired by this thread (and for those who know me i'm not easity inspired by anyone) to make the extra effort improve some rap anchors. yeah, that means carrying more slings and ruining my minimalist lightweight ethics (hehe), but it seems a lot of people feel strongly about this issue.
Right on man. I can dig this sentiment. While I still see no big deal with the OP question, I concede that many times I could have cleaned up a rap station mess and didn't. Its one of the little community service things more experienced climbers should probably do more of, me in particular. A stewardship so to speak, you see a job and you do it, even though you gain no immediate or personal benefit. Sorta like a payback for all who came before us and did the same.
Hellyeah.
This has been a good thread, to talk about these things with almost no antagonism whatsoever.
DMT
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moose_droppings
Oct 5, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: moose_droppings wrote: Bolt it, and they will come And when they do, 1 rap line is going to get a litle crowded. So, lets put up another. Domino theory, seen it way to many times. Dingus wrote: In wilderness areas? Multiple bolted rap routes? You seen this many times? I sure haven't. Not in the back country. Not even once. DMT
Dingus,
Though I did not say "wilderness", you are right to imput that into a broad statement. But yes, I have seen this happening further and further into the back country. It chokes me to say bolted rap route and wilderness in the same sentence,(choke choke) its an oxymoron.
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landgolier
Oct 5, 2005, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: hehe....back of George Clinton's head......that's funny. do you think it is unreasonable for the climbing community to make more of an effort the reduce "rainbow tats"?
I think we can try to do it, sure, but in some places I think shittons of slings piling up are a signal that it's time to throw in a couple bolts. Also, there are plenty of rats nests out there where the bottom few are welded into the crack, so people leave them because there's no point in cutting what can't be replaced, even though you're going to throw your own crap on top of them.
When my buddies lived in north Florida they used to run into George Clinton a couple times a year out buying groceries or whatever. Said the guy was way cool but also basically permastoned.
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paulj
Oct 5, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Two things from this thread:
1. I am glad I won a Trango Shark at an Adopt-a-Crag raffle; I'll be slashing the tat this weekend.
2. "Permastoned" is a GREAT route name.
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landgolier
Oct 5, 2005, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: Two things from this thread: 1. I am glad I won a Trango Shark at an Adopt-a-Crag raffle; I'll be slashing the tat this weekend. 2. "Permastoned" is a GREAT route name.
Use it if you want, but let me know. It came out of working in IT and talking about the difference between things which were fixable and things that were FUBAR.
"Dude, this DB/router/wiring is all fucked up"
"I mean, is it just messed up, or are we talking permafucked?"
"Definitely permafucked. This is going to cost us some all-nighters"
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saxonyclimber
Oct 5, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Like most debates on climbing ethics, this one is running in circles. Everyone is bringing up the same things over and over again.
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oldrnotboldr
Oct 5, 2005, 8:00 PM
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Good point saxonyclimber.
I'd just like to add a little more support for bolts on popular routes to help avoid the "rainbow" tats.
As far as decreasing the sense of adventure: I believe there is a route on Cerro Torre called the compressor route, which has an old compressor and many bolts hanging out there. I doubt anyone would suggest that route and mountain is anything less than adventure.
It's not bolts that decrease the adventure, it's the mass of humanity. I'm sure that El Capitan, a foremost big wall in the world, (or any other popular spot) is not the same place it was 20 years ago due to the masses of humanity.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 5, 2005, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: Another slippery slope is the dogma that bolts are the root of all evil. Climber impact is measured more in visual impact than a tiny hole in the rock. Do you think hikers in Yosemite spot the bolt anchors of a climb or the white "trails" of lichen-less rock on each side of a popular crack? What about the rainbow of nasty webbing wrapped around a tree? Think impact, not dogma.
I believe, although I could be mistaken, that his reference to a slippery slope pertained more to the possibility that seeing bolted anchors might eventually lead some to think that maybe a few protection bolts might not be a bad idea, either. After all, what is the difference in a bolted anchor and a bolt here and there for protection - a sad but true mindset of some, I'm afraid.
Responsible bolting, outside of places like the Front Range and Eldorado Canyon, where such practices are mandated, is susceptible to the interpretation of the person wielding the drill. Although I would like to think that most wilderness climbers know better, the fact is that an ever-increasing number of new members to the activity are being reared on the premise that bolts are the perfect solution to everything - especially dealing with the so-called impurities of climbing (i.e. rapping, etc.).
I believe that certain things should simply be left as they are. If it ain't broke, why fix it? So there are slings left behind. They are an eyesore to me too, but I can always cut them if I don't like looking at them.
Let's just say that the world passes a moratorium on wilderness bolting. That won't change the fact that we don't like looking at tattered slings, although being left without the option of permanent bolts might inspire us to think outside the box to come up with a better (retrievable) solution.
I vote for no bolted anchors on existing wilderness routes that have been successfully done without them.
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ambler
Oct 5, 2005, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: It's not bolts that decrease the adventure, it's the mass of humanity. |
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