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lewisiarediviva
Oct 6, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: and lewisiarediviva, you had a good hunch that perhaps wilderness, in this setting, might have a more specific meaning than the dictionary definition. however, the term is not a "politically correct" phrase but rather it is a straight-up political phrase.
Thank altelis, you are correct. I had not explained what I was saying very well. I was merely attempting to explain why and how the term wilderness, combined with it laws, now means what it means. I was attempting to say that our legal term for "wilderness" is politically described as very primitive.
But, I was wrong anyway. I see now that the regulations are actually not as strict as I had believed. On further research I see that the use of the term mechanical is in reference to vehicles.
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tradklime
Oct 6, 2005, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Some how I'm not surprised that USFS is unsure what their own regulations actually mean.
The Wilderness Act is vague, perhaps on purpose. As such, it results in a broad variety of interpretations. Each agency can have different interpretations, and do. Each agency tries to provide clarification of their own interpretation to the people who are enforcing the rules. As with all bureaucracies, things don't always translate well from the top down, or aren't always realistic in implemenation. We all (climbers) should just be happy that such a ridiculous and limiting rule as the bolting ban isn't being strictly enforced.
When I worked for the USFS about a decade ago, it was my impression that, generally, the USFS had a more strict interpretation of the Wilderness act than the Park Service or BLM. For example, the Park Rangers I knew of would use chain saws to clear fallen trees from their trails in Wilderness areas, and we would use an ax or hike in 6 ft. cross cut saws (very fun) to clear trails in our Wilderness areas. The USFS bolting ban could be an artifact of their strict tendancies.
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dingus
Oct 6, 2005, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: When I worked for the USFS about a decade ago, it was my impression that, generally, the USFS had a more strict interpretation of the Wilderness act than the Park Service or BLM. For example, the Park Rangers I knew of would use chain saws to clear fallen trees from their trails in Wilderness areas, and we would use an ax or hike in 6 ft. cross cut saws (very fun) to clear trails in our Wilderness areas. The USFS bolting ban could be an artifact of their strict tendancies.
Hiking into the Palisades a few years ago, Burl and I came across a forest service contractor doing trail maintenance. This is a havily used trail for both humans and pack stock. He was reworking the trail across a talus slope to make it more stock friendly I think, ie smoothing it out.
His tools consisted of a few cold chisels, a huge chisel, like 6 or 8 feet long, made out of hardened steel for prying, etc. A hand and long sledge completed his tool kit.
He wouls stare at a section, and let his mind wander. Then he'd roam first above and only if he had to, below the trail in search of a rock that wouyld come closest to fitting is current problem.
Once he found his man he would manhandle into place with as little of direct muscle as possible and then he would Michaelangelo it into precise shape. He was a silent craftsman and clearly was not comfortable with us hanging round to watch. He did tell us he specifically contracted to fix this section of trail, that he did this kind of work all summer long, and his hours were his own. He was paid a lump sum for the work, plus his kit.
Anyway, if THOSE tools are on-route for trail work, they are bloody by god on route for route work too. A hand drill IS NOT a power tool, not by any stretch of the imagination and anyone who has ever used both would laugh at the notion.
DMT
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ddriver
Oct 6, 2005, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Anyway, if THOSE tools are on-route for trail work, they are bloody by god on route for route work too. A hand drill IS NOT a power tool, not by any stretch of the imagination and anyone who has ever used both would laugh at the notion. DMT
Oh yeah? Well, check this out. Two years ago we were hiking out of the East Fork in the Winds and the USFS was using drills and explosives to smooth out the trail for the benefit of pack animals. This was at least 4 miles from Big Sandy opening. Is that in wilderness? I suspect so.
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tradklime
Oct 6, 2005, 8:55 PM
Post #105 of 167
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In reply to: Anyway, if THOSE tools are on-route for trail work, they are bloody by god on route for route work too. A hand drill IS NOT a power tool, not by any stretch of the imagination and anyone who has ever used both would laugh at the notion. DMT
Absolutely! And I'd take it even further and say that if you want to place bolts in a National Park, go ahead and bring the Bosch.
What's fair is fair! A vertical trail is still a trail. Or its just plain hipocrisy.
One potential problem is that most Agencies have laws against people making their own trails, and that all trails need to be officially santioned and built to certain specs... But that's all just semantics.
Regarding dynamite... it isn't motorized equipment, which is specifically addressed in the Act. I heard stories of USFS folks going after large trees that had fallen across trail with a few sticks. Them trees get awfully big out in Washington State. Boom, problem solved.
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jeffvoigt
Oct 6, 2005, 9:20 PM
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As far as the wilderness act goes it seems as though it has come back to bite forest service workers in the ass. In 2003 there was massive washouts that heavily damaged the trails around the Glacer Peak area. (WA) Well it turns out that because they can't use power tools, they are stuck sawing six foot diameter logs by hand. If they were allowed power tools to cut and move logs and reconstruct trails they would have been done by now im sure. I think that i remember a story saying that they wouldnt have it finished till late in 2007. Not only would they be done sooner, but the just think about what it is gonna cost now because it took two years longer than it should have. Looks like we are gonna be paying more for trail head parking passes next year!
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landongw
Oct 10, 2005, 7:28 PM
Post #107 of 167
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In reply to: landongw wrote: If you don't like seeing the, pick it up and pack it out. Hell you could even leave a camoflauged sling. Which does not permanently alter the wilderness. Nor does a bolt. Everyting you said applies equally to bolts, slings and humans for that matter. DMT
? huh ? a sling can be cut and removed. a bolt leaves a permanent hole in the rock, which water gets into, freezes, thaws and breaks the rock. sounds like a permanent alteration to me.
Even if no one removes a sling, 200 years later it will degrade (I honestly don't know how long it takes, but 50 years of sun leaves slings close to dust), no one will know i was there. But a hole in the rock is a permanent footprint of my passing.
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dingus
Oct 10, 2005, 7:44 PM
Post #108 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: landongw wrote: If you don't like seeing the, pick it up and pack it out. Hell you could even leave a camoflauged sling. Which does not permanently alter the wilderness. Nor does a bolt. Everyting you said applies equally to bolts, slings and humans for that matter. DMT ? huh ? a sling can be cut and removed. a bolt leaves a permanent hole in the rock, which water gets into, freezes, thaws and breaks the rock. sounds like a permanent alteration to me. Even if no one removes a sling, 200 years later it will degrade (I honestly don't know how long it takes, but 50 years of sun leaves slings close to dust), no one will know i was there. But a hole in the rock is a permanent footprint of my passing.
Couple O weeks ago I was climbing on sandstone. About 67 million years ago a dinosaur was walking along a sandy beach. The grains of sand under old dino's feet went on to become part of the 3 digit pocket I was fingering.
If you think a 3/8 by 3 inch hole is anything remotely approaching permanent there is really no point in carry on the conversation. It is NOT permament, nor is the bolt. The entire cliff will be dust one day and it is a rock, not an endangered species or a something capable of feeling.
In the context of forest service wilderness climbing rules, the SLING is as illegal as the bolt. In the context of impacts to wilderness, it is PEOPLE, not slings, not bolts, that create the impact. The easiest answer of all to this problem is:
Don't climb Wolf's Head if you can't climb back down.
If you need to rap from Wolf's Head, you are part of the problem. Sling it, bolt it, I don't care, either way you're breaking the law and either way you're leaving a semi-permanent anchor behind. SLING IT if it helps you sleep better. I'm not so sure however, that nylon degrades faster than steel.
Cheers
DMT
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landongw
Oct 10, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Dingus
I don't mean to say bolt or sling one way or the other. I am merely pointing out that for all intensive purposes a bolt is a permanent alteration. and it is permanent human alterations (dinosaurs are mildly beside the point and scope of the discussion) that federally designated wilderness is meant to manage. And it is not the degradation of the steel that is an issue, it is the permanent hole in the rock. A bolt can be removed, a sling can be removed, the drilled hole cannot.
Bolting the rap route may be the best form of management. I have never been to the winds much less the wolfs head. but i hope that when i do go there, there won't be sport routes on it.
I think the reason this is an issue for land managers is because they're trying to prevent the veritable climbing carnival present in places like yosemite. They want to maintain the spirit of wilderness, adventure, and self-reliance.
from a land manager perspective a stance must be taken, and from a conservationists perspective a conservative stance is best. But, that's not to say that a certain amount of rule-breaking isn't figured into our management plan.
i for one would f the man and consider placing a bolt if it was my best/only option. as i will occassionally build a safe fire in spite of a fire ban. That doesn't mean that the fire ban isn't a responsible management decision.
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jeffvoigt
Oct 10, 2005, 11:19 PM
Post #110 of 167
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In reply to: I'm not so sure however, that nylon degrades faster than steel.
umm, I'm pretty sure the sling is gonna degrade before a bolt would.
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memory_hole
Oct 10, 2005, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm not so sure however, that nylon degrades faster than steel. umm, I'm pretty sure the sling is gonna degrade before a bolt would. |
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jeffvoigt
Oct 11, 2005, 6:54 AM
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well webbing is made of nylon and nylon is a fibrous version of a plastic. Plastics are easily degraded by chemical weathering from rain and the sun, as well as mechanical weathering from wind and dirt etc... Steel bolts are still susceptible to weathering from rain, wind and dirt etc... but not nearly as much from the sun. So I am pretty sure that if you left a bolt and a sling on the same face together the bolt would outlive the sling by quite a bit. If you came across two bolts with cold shuts at a rappel station that were 10 years old and right next to that station there were two nylon slings around a tree that were the same age as the bolts which one would you rappel from? (This is completely hypothetical and I don't want to get into the argument about bolting when natural rappel anchors are present, I am all for using natural anchors over bolts.)
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memory_hole
Oct 11, 2005, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: Plastics are easily degraded by chemical weathering from rain and the sun, as well as mechanical weathering from wind and dirt etc... |
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jeffvoigt
Oct 11, 2005, 8:55 PM
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I can see what you are trying to say but you never answered the question that I posed. Would you rap off a ten year old set of bolts or would you rap off of a sling that has been hanging from a tree for ten years? (lets assume that both are in full sun and are equally exposed to the weather) I realize now from some further reading that webbing will only loose it's color from UV, but after ten years regardless of use it still had a loss of tensile strength. I don't know about you, but I would still trust the bolts more than a piece of faded webbing flapping in the wind.
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dingus
Oct 11, 2005, 9:11 PM
Post #115 of 167
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In reply to: I can see what you are trying to say but you never answered the question that I posed. Would you rap off a ten year old set of bolts or would you rap off of a sling that has been hanging from a tree for ten years? (lets assume that both are in full sun and are equally exposed to the weather) I realize now from some further reading that webbing will only loose it's color from UV, but after ten years regardless of use it still had a loss of tensile strength. I don't know about you, but I would still trust the bolts more than a piece of faded webbing flapping in the wind.
Well you never answered mine either. I don't care about strength. I want to know which will revert to its constituient parts usable by nature fastest. Just because the sling falls apart doesn't mean the pieces are now part of a fish, or a tree or my lunch. The pieces are still laying about, inert, unusable. The question is, how long?
I can understand rust. Rust never sleeps. So the bolt will slowly go from whence it came. Hell, nylon molecules may be laying around for a billion years, I don't know.
That's why I asked. Too bad the folks who know can't be bothered to answer.
DMT
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tradklime
Oct 11, 2005, 9:26 PM
Post #116 of 167
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In reply to: I don't know about you, but I would still trust the bolts more than a piece of faded webbing flapping in the wind.
Isn't that really a great argument for the use of bolts?
From a environmental resource conservation perspective, doesn't it make sense to install something with a longer usable life?
From a wilderness preservation perspective, doesn't it make sense to use something that is less likely to generate trash?
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memory_hole
Oct 11, 2005, 9:26 PM
Post #117 of 167
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In reply to: I can see what you are trying to say but you never answered the question that I posed. Would you rap off a ten year old set of bolts or would you rap off of a sling that has been hanging from a tree for ten years? (lets assume that both are in full sun and are equally exposed to the weather) I realize now from some further reading that webbing will only loose it's color from UV, but after ten years regardless of use it still had a loss of tensile strength. I don't know about you, but I would still trust the bolts more than a piece of faded webbing flapping in the wind.
I don't see how polling RC.com for whether people would choose to rap off bolts or slings is going to help us arrive at an informed conclusion as to the relative safety of each. This is the sort of thing that needs to be determined empirically.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 11, 2005, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: I have never been to the winds much less the wolfs head. but i hope that when i do go there, there won't be sport routes on it. I think the reason this is an issue for land managers is because they're trying to prevent the veritable climbing carnival present in places like yosemite. They want to maintain the spirit of wilderness, adventure, and self-reliance.
Apparently you've never been in a Western "wilderness." Mind your step. The land managers are more than happy to grant grazing permits for sheep and cattle. Nothing natural about that in the slightest. Even the pack trains don't do as much damage. Arguing about a few with tiny holes drilled by hand with bits of metal that very few people will ever see is just silly.
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tradklime
Oct 11, 2005, 9:34 PM
Post #119 of 167
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In reply to: I don't see how polling RC.com for whether people would choose to rap off bolts or slings is going to help us arrive at an informed conclusion as to the relative safety of each.
See my post above, there are potential impacts based on people's PERCEPTION of the safety of the anchor. People will evaluate an anchor for it's safety, if they perceive a problem, most will try to rectify their perceived problem. To that end, the actual strength is irrelavent (assuming either is sufficiently strong to perform it's function), its people's perception of their safety that will decide their course of action.
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agrauch
Oct 11, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #120 of 167
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In reply to: Apparently you've never been in a Western "wilderness." Mind your step. The land managers are more than happy to grant grazing permits for sheep and cattle. Nothing natural about that in the slightest. Even the pack trains don't do as much damage. Arguing about a few with tiny holes drilled by hand with bits of metal that very few people will ever see is just silly.
I was pretty surprised to see cattle grazing in the Mt. Zirkel wilderness but I recently found out that the Wilderness Act permits grazing where it had been established prior to the act going into effect.
It also allows for prospecting. If you can dig a big ass hole in the ground looking for gold or uranium or whatever, it does seem rather silly to prevent hand drilling of rap anchors.
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memory_hole
Oct 11, 2005, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: See my post above,
In reply to: there are potential impacts based on people's PERCEPTION of the safety of the anchor. People will evaluate an anchor for it's safety, if they perceive a problem, most will try to rectify their perceived problem. To that end, the actual strength is irrelavent (assuming either is sufficiently strong to perform it's function), its people's perception of their safety that will decide their course of action. |
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tradklime
Oct 11, 2005, 10:18 PM
Post #122 of 167
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In reply to: Are you saying that people will perceive that fixed slings are unsafe and therefore they will continue to add more and more slings?
Well yes, that would be my guess. An I think anecdotal evidence backs this up.
I recall that studies have been done on sun baked slings and they have faired well (I don't recall the specifics). This has done little to reduce the nests of slings we all of come across.
A well equiped and documented rap route can actually do alot to mitigate impact. It concentrates the traffic, it reduces the volume of rap anchors, it reduces the production of trash. Unfortunately, on the other hand, in some ways it reduces the "adventure".
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antiqued
Oct 11, 2005, 11:23 PM
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After 8 pages, it's time for something real.
All of the tat on Wolf's Head which the original poster wants to minimize must be attached to something. How much of it could be replaced by chains attached to blocks, threaded thru pinches, etc?
Shouldn't that person consider taking chain up and replacing the nylon? Shouldn't weigh that much more than bolts, hangers, chains, Bosch and batteries. (or be that much more work than hand drilling those holes)
Voila! - an established rap route, no clutter, no rainbow display, no drilling.
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veganboyjosh
Oct 11, 2005, 11:30 PM
Post #124 of 167
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In reply to: After 8 pages, it's time for something real. All of the tat on Wolf's Head which the original poster wants to minimize must be attached to something. How much of it could be replaced by chains attached to blocks, threaded thru pinches, etc? Shouldn't that person consider taking chain up and replacing the nylon? Shouldn't weigh that much more than bolts, hangers, chains, Bosch and batteries. (or be that much more work than hand drilling those holes) Voila! - an established rap route, no clutter, no rainbow display, no drilling.
an interesting idea.
what about slinging trees with chains? same idea...
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 2:36 AM
Post #125 of 167
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In reply to: After 8 pages, it's time for something real. All of the tat on Wolf's Head which the original poster wants to minimize must be attached to something. How much of it could be replaced by chains attached to blocks, threaded thru pinches, etc? Shouldn't that person consider taking chain up and replacing the nylon? Shouldn't weigh that much more than bolts, hangers, chains, Bosch and batteries. (or be that much more work than hand drilling those holes) Voila! - an established rap route, no clutter, no rainbow display, no drilling.
The answer is simple: Bolts lead to more bolts. This isn't a slippery slope; it is a fact. The problem with bolts is that they propagate like gerbils. The other simple answer is that a route that has been done without them, should continue to be done without them. That is how you preserve the adventure. We really don't need convenience in the wilderness. Save that for life in the rat race. Leaving the rock as you found it will insure the adventure for the next climber. Bring your own means of rapping (slings,etc.). If I don't like the sight of them, I can always cut them and be done with them. That is how it's supposed to work on wilderness routes. All this debate over the minutia of impact is diluting the real issue (keeping sport tactics out of the wilderness in order to maintain the adventure for the next climber).
Please keep bolts off of established routes. Adventure climbers go to the wilderness for just that - adventure. Bolted rap stations are the lazy way out. We don't need them, and many of us don't want them there.
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