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scratchnclaw
Oct 12, 2005, 7:43 AM
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Allright, I'm gonna weigh in on this since it seems nearly everyone else has :
First of all, I can't believe the response to this. Hemlock, I know you were trying to generate a thoughtful dicussion - and I can appreciate that. Honestly, though, who in their right mind is going to go up there with enough bolts, hangers, chains, etc. to equip five rap anchors ? Further, who in their right mind would spend the ungodly amount of time in a cold shadowy gulley that it would take to hand drill all those holes ?
This is the way it works : Climbers in remote places on big routes take extra webbing with them. If they don't like the condition of the existing webbing they add another peice. If there is such a huge mass of old shit webbing there that they can't add anything new, they cut out the worst of the old and make room for the new. You carry the old shit out with you.
Climbers are a crafty bunch and I think this has been pretty well figured out - besides, I kind-of like the smell of old, rotten webbing and somtimes it's cool to see a piece among the fray that you know is 30+ years old.
Again, Hemlock, I'm not disrespecting you; you sound like a very fine and active climber. I've got to think that in a way you wish you could take this one back.
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landongw
Oct 12, 2005, 11:24 AM
Post #127 of 167
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In reply to: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Apparently you've never been in a Western "wilderness." Mind your step. The land managers are more than happy to grant grazing permits for sheep and cattle. Nothing natural about that in the slightest. Even the pack trains don't do as much damage. Arguing about a few with tiny holes drilled by hand with bits of metal that very few people will ever see is just silly.
(shudder) ooh, how offensive.
In reply to: I was pretty surprised to see cattle grazing in the Mt. Zirkel wilderness but I recently found out that the Wilderness Act permits grazing where it had been established prior to the act going into effect. It also allows for prospecting. If you can dig a big ass hole in the ground looking for gold or uranium or whatever, it does seem rather silly to prevent hand drilling of rap anchors
I have seen the damage done by cattle in the backcountry. They devastate watersheds, small streams can become non-existent when they trample the soil.
My uncle worked in the Idaho prison system for 30 years. About 5 years ago he died of skin cancer that he got in vietnam. I was fortunate enought to spend some time with him just before he died. I never pass up a chance to talk to a man on his death bed, that's when the greatest wisdom is imparted. He told me about how they would "manage" the inmates. "They started out having 3 hours of TV time a day. And the warden wanted to get rid of the tv privelege alltogether. Now, if we were to just take away the TV all at one time the prisoners would riot. So, we don't do that, we do it a little bit at a time. In a few months we'd cut it back to 2:45, and in another few months we'd cut it back to 2:30. Over the course of several years we cut their TV time down to only a half an hour. It was done so slowly that the inmates never even noticed, and they never said a word about it. Everything works this way," he said. "This is how freedoms are lost, how prices are raised, how wages are cut, it happens so gradually that you don't even notice."
Erosion of wild land happens the same way (of course when you or I are drilling a bolt hole we're not thinking "he he, less wilderness for the next guy") But, the concept is the same, and that is the gradual outcome.
Arguing about a few bolt holes does seem silly. I guess it just depends on what context you're looking at it in.
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arrow
Oct 12, 2005, 12:43 PM
Post #128 of 167
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Professors and students from various universities have been coming to the Gunnison Valley for the past seven summers to study the impact of cattle grazing as allowed by the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) in the surrounding wilderness areas. Their published findings this summer showed zero negative impact. I don't know where you live but at least the Colorado BLM appears to be a good steward of our wilderness areas.
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tradklime
Oct 12, 2005, 3:12 PM
Post #129 of 167
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In reply to: That is how it's supposed to work on wilderness routes.
Myopia: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something.
Archaic: of, relating to, or characteristic of an earlier or more primitive time.
Did you ever think that the wads of rainbow tat could actually be decreasing your wilderness adventure experience. It is easier to see and find than a few camoflaged bolts.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 3:47 PM
Post #130 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: That is how it's supposed to work on wilderness routes. That's really all the argument boils down to... damn be to thought, it's how things are supposed to be, that's how it's always been done. Never mind the realities of impact, never mind the realities of particular routes. Myopia: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something. Archaic: of, relating to, or characteristic of an earlier or more primitive time. Did you ever think that the wads of rainbow tat could actually be decreasing your wilderness adventure experience. It is easier to see and find than a few camoflaged bolts.
The only myopic view here is yours - especially when the information is right in front of you.
It is laughable to accuse slings, looped around points of contact, of causing high impact damage to wilderness areas. They are easily and acceptably removable. Bolts are fixed hardware, and they most certainly change the character of the climbing experience.
This isn't about dogma. There are many places in which a person can climb for convenience. The wilderness is our last bastion of hope for the opportunity to experience true adventure climbing, and retro bolting established adventure routes is a perfect way to diminish that experience.
Yours is either a strawman argument, or you just don't get it.
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agrauch
Oct 12, 2005, 4:31 PM
Post #131 of 167
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Oh good, I'm glad to see this is turning nasty. Been wondering when it was going to happen.
rufusandcompany, you are correct, slings are easily and acceptably removed. Whenever possible, I try to remove old tat and carry it out of the wilderness. However on the Wolf's Head descent, the slings aren't being cleaned up. It's gone past the point of a few established rap stations to where the descent gully is littered with loads of old nasty tat from people who either can't find or don't trust the main anchors. Clearly, the gully needs to be cleaned up and the main anchors replaced. Whether or not bolts will help the proliferation of litter in the future, I don't know. Might be interesting to find out though.
As far as bolts detracting from the adventure, that's debatable. I would say that any established rap anchor, sling or otherwise, detracts from the adventure to an extent.
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dingus
Oct 12, 2005, 4:42 PM
Post #132 of 167
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In reply to: It is laughable to accuse slings, looped around points of contact, of causing high impact damage to wilderness areas.
Ditto a 3/8 x 3 inch piece of stainless steel. Laughable. I do that outloud every time someone tries it.
In reply to: Bolts are fixed hardware, and they most certainly change the character of the climbing experience.
Which is a completely different discussion. Change the character of a climb, I can agree. Certainly change the character of a descent! I accept your contention that many, perhaps even most back country climbers would not approve of the proposed bolted rap anchors. Clearly others do however. Do you speak for them as well?
I do not accept the notion that these bolted stations would represent anything remotely like impact. I believe a few wads of poorly disposed toilet paper down in the cirque are far more, FAR MORE impactful than all the bolts in the Winds combined.
In reply to: This isn't about dogma.
Perhaps not from you dude. You seem to be a well considered individual. There are plenty for whom all climbing style considerations ARE DOGMA. You know it too. On both sides of the issue.
In reply to: There are many places in which a person can climb for convenience. The wilderness is our last bastion of hope for the opportunity to experience true adventure climbing, and retro bolting established adventure routes is a perfect way to diminish that experience.
I actually find this argument pursuasive. The impact thing? DOA I'm afraid.
In reply to: Yours is either a strawman argument, or you just don't get it.
I think he just doesn't agree with you, which means he won't get it, either. That's his dogma to bear. I have my share too I reckon.
Cheers
DMT
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crotch
Oct 12, 2005, 4:46 PM
Post #133 of 167
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In reply to: However on the Wolf's Head descent, the slings aren't being cleaned up. It's gone past the point of a few established rap stations to where the descent gully is littered with loads of old nasty tat from people who either can't find or don't trust the main anchors.
If folks can't find the webbing, how will they find camo bolts? If they don't trust the webbing and need to add their own, why not eliminate a few older slings.
Maybe the word isn't getting out, but folks ought to know that if you add webbing, it's your responsibilty to remove and carry out AT LEAST one old sling. Carry rock colored webbing.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 4:57 PM
Post #134 of 167
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In reply to: Oh good, I'm glad to see this is turning nasty. Been wondering when it was going to happen.
I was simply responding to your insulting comment.
In reply to: rufusandcompany, you are correct, slings are easily and acceptably removed. Whenever possible, I try to remove old tat and carry it out of the wilderness. However on the Wolf's Head descent, the slings aren't being cleaned up. It's gone past the point of a few established rap stations to where the descent gully is littered with loads of old nasty tat from people who either can't find or don't trust the main anchors. Clearly, the gully needs to be cleaned up and the main anchors replaced. Whether or not bolts will help the proliferation of litter in the future, I don't know. Might be interesting to find out though.
A simple solution: Go clean it up if it bothers you so much. Make a contribution to preserving the wilderness experience.
In reply to: As far as bolts detracting from the adventure, that's debatable.
That depends on who you ask.
In reply to: I would say that any established rap anchor, sling or otherwise, detracts from the adventure to an extent.
No argument here, although as I've now said too many times, slings are easily and acceptably removable. I just do not see the dilemma. All I see is a fervent argument in favor of convenience.
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agrauch
Oct 12, 2005, 5:20 PM
Post #135 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: A simple solution: Go clean it up if it bothers you so much.
No shit, why didn't I think of that?
Again I'll pose the question, do we need to form a "Friends of the Winds" group where we go to the Cirque with the goal of cleaning up and re-equiping popular descents?
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agrauch
Oct 12, 2005, 5:45 PM
Post #136 of 167
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In reply to: If folks can't find the webbing, how will they find camo bolts?
Very good argument against placing bolts on the rap. It could very well be that they won't make any difference in the situation.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 5:54 PM
Post #137 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A simple solution: Go clean it up if it bothers you so much. No s---, why didn't I think of that? Again I'll pose the question, do we need to form a "Friends of the Winds" group where we go to the Cirque with the goal of cleaning up and re-equiping popular descents?
Look, agrauch, I'm just responding to your comments.
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tradklime
Oct 12, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #138 of 167
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In reply to: The only myopic view here is yours - especially when the information is right in front of you.
In reply to: Bolts are fixed hardware, and they most certainly change the character of the climbing experience.
In reply to: This isn't about dogma.
In reply to: Yours is either a strawman argument, or you just don't get it. |
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tradklime
Oct 12, 2005, 6:22 PM
Post #139 of 167
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In reply to: If folks can't find the webbing, how will they find camo bolts?
I'll quote myself from a previous post:
In reply to: A well equiped and documented rap route can actually do alot to mitigate impact. It concentrates the traffic, it reduces the volume of rap anchors, it reduces the production of trash. Unfortunately, on the other hand, in some ways it reduces the "adventure".
The key here is "documented". If everyone knows where the rap route is, you avoid the multitude of anchors. You also unfortunately reduce some of the adventure.
The point I am trying to make is that it is all a compromise. The reality is that the situation will not be perfect. People are welcome to hide behind their own bias as the ultimate solution, but it's foolish to not realize that, no matter what your opinion is, it is a contradiction at some level.
Bolts are evil, tat is evil, guidebooks are evil, its all bullshit.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 7:05 PM
Post #140 of 167
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In reply to: Bolts are evil, tat is evil, guidebooks are evil, its all s---.
That one is called a red herring.
You have avoided all of the questions about respecting the rights of others to enjoy unequipped routed in the wilderness, the ease of simply cutting away slings, and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same. If you don't know this, then you aren't as experienced as you might claim to be.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 12, 2005, 7:24 PM
Post #141 of 167
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In reply to: You have avoided all of the questions about respecting the rights of others to enjoy unequipped routed in the wilderness, the ease of simply cutting away slings, and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same.
Screw that nonsense. The adventure should be on the ascent, not an epic getting down. Nobody said anything about retrobolting routes except you. The question is whether it's environmentally better to have designated descent routes to which the answer is an unequivical yes. If someone is willing to put the time into hand drilling good anchors, it will be a service to climbers and the environment.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 12, 2005, 7:40 PM
Post #142 of 167
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In reply to: Screw that nonsense. The adventure should be on the ascent, not an epic getting down.
Here we go!!!
Correction - screw that^^^ridiculous notion.
Getting down is every bit a part of the adventure. Ask anyone who have even been on a big mountain or peak, because you obviously haven't.
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tradklime
Oct 12, 2005, 7:42 PM
Post #143 of 167
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In reply to: That one is called a red herring.
In reply to: You have avoided all of the questions about respecting the rights of others to enjoy unequipped routed in the wilderness, the ease of simply cutting away slings, and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same.
Hmmm... peoples rights. How about the rights of others to install bolts. How about people's rights to down solo 5.13 without comming across a bunch of tat. How about the rights of people who don't like to see climbers on rock faces. yada yada yada. We all have our own perspective that may contradict some other person's. Hence the compromise previously mentioned.
In reply to: the ease of simply cutting away slings,
Here's another way of looking at it, if the anchor is never removed, does it matter that it could easily be done?
If rapping is the only way to get down and we want to close an area to climbing and restore it to it's "prestine" condition, how does the last guy get down?
In reply to: and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same.
You seem to put an inordinate emphasis on how the type of fixed anchor impacts your climbing experience. Or perhaps we just disagree...
In reply to: If you don't know this, then you aren't as experienced as you might claim to be. |
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agrauch
Oct 12, 2005, 7:44 PM
Post #144 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A simple solution: Go clean it up if it bothers you so much. No s---, why didn't I think of that? Again I'll pose the question, do we need to form a "Friends of the Winds" group where we go to the Cirque with the goal of cleaning up and re-equiping popular descents? Look, agrauch, I'm just responding to your comments.
Yeah, I know...as was I.
In reply to: You have avoided all of the questions about respecting the rights of others to enjoy unequipped routed in the wilderness, the ease of simply cutting away slings, and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same. If you don't know this, then you aren't as experienced as you might claim to be.
So everyone has the right to equip a rappel route in the wilderness for themselves? I'll grant that as I've certainly left my fair share of sling and cord scattered around mountains.
I can think of plenty of instances where bolts mysteriously multiply at easily accessible areas. Do you have any examples of where bolting rappel routes in the wilderness leads to more of the same?
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takeme
Oct 12, 2005, 7:47 PM
Post #145 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: You have avoided all of the questions about respecting the rights of others to enjoy unequipped routed in the wilderness, the ease of simply cutting away slings, and the reality that retro-bolting leads to more of the same. Screw that nonsense. The adventure should be on the ascent, not an epic getting down.
That kind of attitude makes sense, I guess, if you're trying to turn mountain climbs into crags. I'd rather toe the line on that, personally.
In reply to: Nobody said anything about retrobolting routes except you.
Actually, it's probably worth noting that by adding bolted anchors, we'd be retrobolting the West Face of Wolf's Head (the original route taken on the first ascent of the peak).
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crotch
Oct 12, 2005, 7:58 PM
Post #146 of 167
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In reply to: Screw that nonsense. The adventure should be on the ascent, not an epic getting down.
Backcountry may demand that you employ your rockaneering skills at any given time.
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takeme
Oct 12, 2005, 8:00 PM
Post #147 of 167
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In reply to: I can think of plenty of instances where bolts mysteriously multiply at easily accessible areas. Do you have any examples of where bolting rappel routes in the wilderness leads to more of the same?
Do you consider Rocky Mountain NP to be wilderness? It's certainly happened there. Every major, semi-popular formation has a bolted rappel route. I don't think any had them until the late 80s.
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tradklime
Oct 12, 2005, 8:11 PM
Post #148 of 167
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In reply to: Do you consider Rocky Mountain NP to be wilderness? It's certainly happened there. Every major, semi-popular formation has a bolted rappel route. I don't think any had them until the late 80s.
Were there fixed rap anchors, sling or otherwise, on those same formations prior to the installation of the bolts?
If so, did it really change the commitment level?
Did some of those bolted rap routes help concentrate the descent traffic?
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agrauch
Oct 12, 2005, 8:34 PM
Post #149 of 167
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In reply to: Actually, it's probably worth noting that by adding bolted anchors, we'd be retrobolting the West Face of Wolf's Head (the original route taken on the first ascent of the peak).
Haha, that's awesome, another fine reason not to add bolts to this rappel route.
In reply to: Do you consider Rocky Mountain NP to be wilderness? It's certainly happened there. Every major, semi-popular formation has a bolted rappel route. I don't think any had them until the late 80s.
Well, given the amount of use RMNP sees and that there is a road across it, I find it hard to call it wilderness. Same goes for the Cirque, it sees way too much traffic to really feel all that wild. But for the sake of argument, let's consider, RMNP to be wilderness. Outside of Lumpy, I can think of 3 bolted raps in the Park, the Petit, the Diamond/Broadway, the Cables Route. That certainly is more than no bolts, but it hardly seems like a problem of over bolting. On Longs it took, what, 60 - 70 years for the bolts to propagate from the north face to the east?
Granted, I haven't climbed a lot in the Park in the last 5 years. If there are more bolted rap lines, I just don't about them. Please enlighten me.
I do remember when the Diamond wasn't bolted. When I first heard about the bolts, I remember thinking that they were rather stupid, given that you could climb to the top of Longs and come down the north side. Now having used them, I can't say I'm sorry they were there.
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takeme
Oct 13, 2005, 12:45 AM
Post #150 of 167
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In reply to: In reply to: Do you consider Rocky Mountain NP to be wilderness? It's certainly happened there. Every major, semi-popular formation has a bolted rappel route. I don't think any had them until the late 80s. Were there fixed rap anchors, sling or otherwise, on those same formations prior to the installation of the bolts?
Yes, but not established rap routes--just random wads of bail slings. Which are pretty much all still there.
In reply to: If so, did it really change the commitment level?
Yes, without question, at least on most of the major formations. Exhibit #1 in this regard is the Diamond.
In reply to: Did some of those bolted rap routes help concentrate the descent traffic?
Some did and some may have dispersed it (i.e., split the traffic between the traditional walk-off and the more direct rappel route), but it's not all that clear to me what point you're trying to make. There was nothing wrong with the traditional walk-off descents on any of these formations, although they were no doubt inconvenient, and may have even required scrambling in the mountains.
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