Well, given the amount of use RMNP sees and that there is a road across it, I find it hard to call it wilderness. Same goes for the Cirque, it sees way too much traffic to really feel all that wild.

But for the sake of argument, let's consider, RMNP to be wilderness. Outside of Lumpy, I can think of 3 bolted raps in the Park, the Petit, the Diamond/Broadway, the Cables Route. That certainly is more than no bolts, but it hardly seems like a problem of over bolting. On Longs it took, what, 60 - 70 years for the bolts to propagate from the north face to the east?

Granted, I haven't climbed a lot in the Park in the last 5 years. If there are more bolted rap lines, I just don't about them. Please enlighten me.

I do remember when the Diamond wasn't bolted. When I first heard about the bolts, I remember thinking that they were rather stupid, given that you could climb to the top of Longs and come down the north side. Now having used them, I can't say I'm sorry they were there.

Some did and some may have dispersed it (i.e., split the traffic between the traditional walk-off and the more direct rappel route), but it's not all that clear to me what point you're trying to make. There was nothing wrong with the traditional walk-off descents on any of these formations, although they were no doubt inconvenient, and may have even required scrambling in the mountains.

However, the original post related to a well established rap route that consisted of slings. I contend that replacing sling anchors with bolts on a well established rap route does nothing to change the character of a climbing experience.

I would also contend that considering a climb/ formation that requires a rap descent where there are several established rap routes, random tat anchors, etc., if you establish a well thought out bolted rap route, you can actually help reduce overall impact, and with very little affect on the climbing experience.

It is my opinion, while not all fixed anchors are created equal, that there is very little difference in climbing experience if the anchor is trust worthy.

rufusandcompany wrote:

The only myopic view here is yours - especially when the information is right in front of you.

tradklime wrote:

Well my opinion on the subject, if that matters, is that it depends. Like most things. However, I fully disagree with the bolts are evil mantra. They have their place, and fixed anchors happen to be one of them, in my opinion.

rufus wrote:

Bolts are fixed hardware, and they most certainly change the character of the climbing experience.

tradklime wrote:

Fixed anchors are fixed anchors. If a nest of slings is permanent in practice, what's the difference? The difference is only how YOU perceive the impact of said anchor. The reality is that in some ways the slings have more of an impact than bolts, and in some ways less.

rufus wrote:

This isn't about dogma.

tradklime wrote:

You could have fooled me.

Again, I think without bolts, the onus is on the climbing team's judgment and experience, i.e. 'mountain sense' if you will.

For example, check out these links:

I wish that the practice of leaving slings on rap stations would be banned.

Getting down is every bit a part of the adventure. Ask anyone who have even been on a big mountain or peak, because you obviously haven't.

It is my fervent wish that you and others who wish to involve government to 'get your way' never do.

You don't like them, so they should be banned.

Jeez, I'd rather you NUT UP and do it the Ken Nichols way rather than running to Mommy Dearest land Manager. Just go chop the s--- out of what you don't like, that's the American Climber way.

I'm serious, too.

DMT

Don't talk to me about the American way of climbing until you have been around it long enough to make that distinction.

1973 big mouth. You always attack the poster's credentials. Seen you do it time and again.

DMT

I tend to agree with you, depending on what part of RMNP we're talking about. The popular summertime spots don't necessarily feel or seem like wilderness--depending on the day. Many places in Wild Basin, the northern Mummy Range, and the west side of the Park do.

All of the popular spots are stunningly beautiful and at least somewhat wild places, however, and my feeling is that we should treat them as wilderness, as much as possible.

I agree with your original sentiment. The traditional walk-off descent is no problem. I've used the rap route as well, but I certainly prefer to walk off. Am I sorry the bolts were there? Well....I think they exist purely for reasons of convenience. I guess that kind of bums me out a bit. They certainly haven't reduced the amount of tat on the face; if anything, they've increased it! What bothers me most is that they've had the effect of significantly decreasing the commitment level involved in attempting the Diamond, as well as (and partially thereby) contributing to a noticeable increase in traffic.

No problem. You left out Spearhead (one or two of these anchors still consist of slings), Chiefshead, Notchtop (down the west face), and the Lower East Face of Long's (below the right side of the Diamond). Hallet is the only really popular mountain I can think of which doesn't have a bolted rappel down the face, although the eastern ridge descent uses one rappel which has new bolts and chains.

What BS. You're just dreaming up dumb@ss arguements to support your weak claims. Adding a bolted rap route doesn't in the slightest decrease from the sense of accomplishment of a alpine climb. It doesn't decrease the adventure you so crave in the slightest. It does protect the environment, it does reduce pointless epics, it does make the entire experience better. There are a bazillion other routes in the Winds that offer a wilderness experience--nothing in the Cirque qualifies.

I apologize for the sharp tongue. I felt that you were asking for it, but it really wasn't necessary.

Since you have been around the sport this long, how do you feel about so much attention being given to slings?

I have been nutting up for three decades, and I don't recall there ever having been so much idol chatter about sling anchors. We just used them, cut them, or whatever, but it just wasn't ever a topic worthy of so much discussion.

I apologize for antagonizing you.

I've pretty much stated my opinion on the rap anchors in question, its a 50 Crowded and like it or not alpine noobs will continue to take their first swipes at the Cirque.

I just don't get that outraged about it any more. You spoke of dogma and we both know it cuts both ways. More than a decade ago I realized there are no 'one size fits all' ethical positions to take that will cover all styles for all people... I can't even find them for me and my own styles! it simply will never happen and this thread is evidence enough of that.

So I employ situation ethics. And in this situation, a chain anchored rap station is are not going to ruin anything imo, and would make a potential eye sore less so, AND save some noobs some misery.

I'm ok with a few lower risk alpine starter routes too.

Slings overall? I'm just not that bothered by the issue Rufas. I've rapped from some of the crappiest mank imaginable and had I had a bolt kit at those times I would have happily drilled. I bet there are countless times when you could have done the same.

I do know this... I have been immensely thankful for the folks who HAVE left rap anchors behind for the benefit of others. For some, the rap station is effectively litter, they would have taken it with them if they could. Others though, take the time to improve a rap station for others.

Sometimes I've been that dude. Climbed in the Valley a lot. There are certain raps that are in chimneys, and the stations themselves are in water falls for part of the year. I know you have them in your neck too. These rats nests are unbelievable... and should be replaced by clean bolted chain rap anchors.

Others should be left alone. Situational ethics at its finest.

Cheers & Peace
DMT

You're just dreaming up dumb@ss arguements to support your weak claims.

Adding a bolted rap route doesn't in the slightest decrease from the sense of accomplishment of a alpine climb. It doesn't decrease the adventure you so crave in the slightest. It does protect the environment, it does reduce pointless epics, it does make the entire experience better.