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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: e sometimes have to do 3 or 4 bat hooks in a row. Sure its aid, but its still the unknown. Try hanging on a bat hook, wiggling around trying to work out the moves to see if the route goes or not, its a bit exciting.
See, this is my question. Glorifying bat hooking? Tied off blades? Tradman poo pooing my RBs? This crap only matters on one ascent. And that one ascent isn't even free!
Since we're getting all hardman here, I'll mention that I've stood on a string of 3/8 RBs. Poor style because they are more secure than bat hooks? Both require a shallow hole. It's been said that an entire bathook pitch is bullshit A5. Sure, nothing will hold a leader fall, but it's entirely contrived!
It sounds like artificially adding danger for a single ascent that no one will repeat stylistically. With so much emphasis placed in trad climbing on 'respecting the style of the FA' it just rings a little hollow.
I'm not saying that you can't enjoy the spicyness of those FAs, but asandh pretty much admitted it has very little impact on subsequent parties. Ground up free stance drilling however, does have more of an impact.
With these considerations in mind, I'm not convinced there is any real style difference from rap bolts.
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sandstoner
Oct 14, 2005, 5:18 PM
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only in sonora
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asandh
Oct 14, 2005, 5:25 PM
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:)
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dingus
Oct 14, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: only in sonora
He doesn't live in Sonora ya stupid son of a bitch.
DMT
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drector
Oct 14, 2005, 7:18 PM
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Drill it however YOU want to. Once it is drilled, no one else is affectd by HOW you drilled it.
Of course they are affected by how WELL you bolted it. That's were I think style comes in. It's not how you put on your clothes in the morning that counts, it's what you look like later that's important. One thing can affect the other but to criticize how a route was bolted without a criticism of the result is pointless.
If the route sucks afterwards then of course the whole thing was wrong from the start.
Dave
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healyje
Oct 14, 2005, 7:20 PM
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It's was pretty sad over time to watch "climbing" come to mean sport climbing and real climbing become "trad climbing" but, hey, I can live with that. But to now see the rise of splitting "trad climbing" into "[safe] trad climbing" and
In reply to: adventure trad climbs
is almost more than I can bear. Our suburban culture of safety debates bolting styles while quietly relegating real climbing, risk, and adventure to yet another innuendo-laden, lexically obscure sub, sub specialty. You know it's getting bad when your adjectives need adjectives. No doubt it will soon become a rare, but popular, ESPN pay-per-spew event with accompanying merchandising, podcasts, and video games.
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brutusofwyde
Oct 14, 2005, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: Ground Up v.s. Rap Bolting is a style NOT an ethics issue. Style only relates to the person doing it, not the whole climbing community. For that reason, this issue is only relevant to the FA. It all depends how much adventure he wants to wring out of his project. As long as the job is done right it really doesn't matter for subsequent climbers.
Disagree.
Placing bolts top down, using power tools, is relevant to the entire climbing community. In many areas, establishing routes in this way can be done much faster, leaving the ground-up first ascentionist with fewer opportunities for the FA.
Power drilling is also illegal in wilderness areas, and rightly so.
Why are so many FAists in such a hurry to establish as many lines as possible that they rap bolt lines that could be established ground-up, hand drilling?
What is wrong with slowing down a little, drilling by hand from stances where and when we can? With leaving more unclimbed rock for future generations?
Perhaps when we let go of this "hurry sickness" enough, we can come to the mountains with enough patience and tranquility to learn the true lessons they have to teach.
Until then, until we stop bringing our own frenetic pace to the mirror of the rocks, our climbing will simply be another aspect of the rat-race that smothers any real and meaningful interaction with the natural world.
Don't get me wrong, Rap power drilling has its place. I've done my share of it. But there are places where it is outlawed, and rightly so.
Brutus
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iamthewallress
Oct 14, 2005, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: look, its pretty simple really. the whole point of climbing something is starting at the bottom and finishing at the top.
Trophy for you. :wink:
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asandh
Oct 14, 2005, 7:38 PM
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:)
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2005, 7:55 PM
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See, I think we're getting close to a fundamental difference in attitudes. Brutus thinks we should 'slow down' by not allowing ourselves convenient techniques and equipment. Sounds pretty arbitrary to me. Dare I bring up sticky rubber? Cams?
Slow down? I didn't think I was moving that fast. Further, and maybe this is a different generational attitude, I don't have much free time (usually) and so I try to maximize my time on the rock. It's my personal interest in doing the climb. The climb, and doing it free, is what's important to me.
And I don't think of rap bolting of stealing lines at all. Who are these people that I am obligated to 'save' rock for? I for one am stoked when someone else has put up a route, so that I can get on it. Let them sweat, let them get their FA, and then let me do the climb. Sounds good to me!
Naturally, different areas are going to have different histories. But I'm not that interested in waiting around forever for some guy to aid up a line if I am motivated to bolt it and free climb it.
Climbing for glory? Not me.
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: look, its pretty simple really. the whole point of climbing something is starting at the bottom and finishing at the top. Trophy for you. :wink:
That's a nice simplification, but in the case of both rap bolting and going ground up on aid, subsequent ascents will not be done in the same 'style' as the FA. Sounds like another contrived game to me. Oh wait, this is climbing we're talking about.
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asandh
Oct 14, 2005, 8:24 PM
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:)
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a510poser
Oct 14, 2005, 8:25 PM
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Ethics are a slippery slope to say the least perhaps even more of a Pandora’s Box. They imply restrictions on our behavior in a sport that, to many, exemplifies freedom of choice. They are often cumbersome and to some can feel like they’re holding us back or slowing us down at the crag. Did some great old wizened climber sit down and actually pen them to preserve their understanding of the sport? Are they common sense consensus of the community at large and if so what era or generation of climbers did they evolve from. Are they still valid in the modern climbing world? Do they also evolve with the sport or are they fixed in stone, pun intended. There are of course many valid and varied answers to all these questions. It seems to me that bottom line is, as a first ascensionist your ethics are nothing more than personal choices that define who you are as a climber, how you will be viewed by future generations and where you think the sport should be going.
Part of the question is what are you, the FAist, trying to get out of the experience. If you’re after a really intense experience, if you really want to get to know that hunk of rock you’re trying to ascend, if you feel that the rock deserves at least a little respect as a challenge and a teacher then you would probably enjoy a good ground upper. I’ve never “put up” a “top down” route so I can’t really attest to the amount satisfaction gained from the experience as a whole. But I only imagine that in the long run the memories and lessons gained from a top down assault will fade quicker than those welded to our psyche by the fear, unknown and commitment involved in the ground up ascent.
Then there’s another little question as to how you feel about taking that particular ground up ascent possibility away from future climbers, perhaps even someday your own child. Climbing is here to stay, it will be for generations to come and every generation climbs harder more committing routes than the last. The rock, as plentiful as it is, is still a limited resource and if we wantonly spray it with bolts as fast as we can get anchors in we will be limiting the progression of future climbers. We may also be stealing at least half the potential adventure from ourselves. To me a lot of what our sport is about is freedom, expression, adventure, courage and just plain old silly fun. Every route you put up is a statement as to your perception of what climbing means, it is a statement literally carved in stone and as your statement it will be recognized by future climbers for what it says about you and our sport.
Then there’s also the question of natural lines or routes that follow weaknesses provided by nature. A blank featureless steep face is a strong wall and if not impossible at least daunting to us as climbers. Through the processes of erosion natural weaknesses form, these could be as innocuous as a few knobs excavated by the rain, as grand as a giant valley carved by glacier or river and every imaginable possibility in between. These are the natural lines of weakness and these are what make an elegant route. On a ground up ascent the rock has more control of the situation than you do and it will adamantly demand that you follow its weaknesses thus discovering an elegant line. On rappel you have taken control and tend to ignore the rocks urgings creating your own vision of its weakness, the quality becomes a crap shoot. In some instances gravity will pull water down softer rock in a relatively straight shot making it possible to rap bolt a natural line and there are some quality rap bolted routes out there. But, in my experiences, by and large I have found rap bolted lines to be of a lower quality, have more weird moves and heinous clips than their ground up counterparts. There are also walls out there that have so many features that you can, just, drop a vertical line of bolts and have a pretty good route, but what did you really get out of the experience? And how will you feel when many years you go back to it and notice that when on top rope half the climbers are veering way left or right of your obviously unnatural bolt line.
Oh what a slippery slope these ethics are. Back in the day while we were hammering out our ethical doctrine many Europeans embraced rap bolting, hang dogging and pulling on gear and it almost seemed as if they were progressing in performance much faster than us, the stuffy ethical Americans. They even had the gall to come over here and rap bolt the hardest climbs in the country. We saw “5.14s” that would blow every American climber off the route for years to come and they were even hang dogging on crack climbs in our sacred cauldron, Yosemite, they even snatched a few jewels from under our noses, which must have really put the hurt on us. These days rap bolting and hang dogging are mostly accepted as legitimate means to an end and the days of pulling the rope and releading the route after every fall is becoming a distant memory or even a foggy legend.
The ethical line of the community is razor sharp, dynamic and full of contradictions. When in the communities favor we can walk the line or even cross the line and still be venerated. That being the case, what do ethics really mean in the long run? Are they a doctrine designed to control the masses and preserve some ancient form of climbing? Are they perhaps the road map to a more beautiful and satisfying style of climbing? As you can see the question is so convoluted and slippery that it could never be fully defined by the masses and can only truly be defined by the individual heart. If you keep in mind that your decisions define who you are as a climber, how you will be viewed by future generations and where you think the sport should be going and you’re true to the heart you will be living ethically for you. Of course blatant disregard for others ethics can get your route chopped or even your ass kicked, so it’s just a slippery slope however you look at it. Good Luck!!
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iamthewallress
Oct 14, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: look, its pretty simple really. the whole point of climbing something is starting at the bottom and finishing at the top. Trophy for you. :wink: That's a nice simplification, but in the case of both rap bolting and going ground up on aid, subsequent ascents will not be done in the same 'style' as the FA. Sounds like another contrived game to me. Oh wait, this is climbing we're talking about.
Unless there are rocks barring you from accessing food, water, shelter, or sex, climbing them is contrived. However, hooking a natural features is not as contrived as swinging in on a rope from above.
On a lot of routes, even a good natural hook can be hard to come by, so climbing them using hooks to drill certain bolts is still using what the rock is providing in a much greater way than rap bolting near a hard move where the rock would not have permited a stance or a hook. Those that follow will have an experience that is related to yours (i.e. They will need to run it out where there was no stance or hook possibility, and they will have great pro where you had a stance or hook).
I actually don't care about giving future generations my identical experience. I don't think that is what is important about trying to do others' routes 'in the style of the FA'. I care about preserving the adventurous nature of doing a climb from the ground up, not really knowing what is going to happen next, trying to maximize what the rock has to offer and minimize the lasting impact of anything that I do to bring it to my level.
Ideally on any route, I would prefer to not add bolts from any perch or take aid for any other reason. If I head off into the unknown, I may need to do either or both. If I have to do either, I aim to do so in a way that respects the rock and those that will come later as much as possible.
If a bolt feels apropriate to me, I'll try to do so from a stance. If that's not possible, then I'd rather hook to drill and continue the relationship with the permissive features that the rock offers as I discover them.
Brutus' post was quite eloquent, and I agree with all of it.
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2005, 8:51 PM
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Wow, some great replies from folks who have considered this sort of thing more than I have.
I think the most true thing I've read is that the result will be how you're viewed by future climbers. For me, this isn't really that important, since I am only of average ability.
I thought brutus made some good points, but I just can't agree with the future generations thing. Doesn't that invalidate bolting on aid, if you're robbing some experience from someone stronger who could do it from natural stances?
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brutusofwyde
Oct 14, 2005, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: It's my personal interest in doing the climb. The climb, and doing it free, is what's important to me.
"Yet I feel that certain values should be preserved in our contact with the mountains. While it is rarely a case of the complete ascendancy of acrobatics over esthetics, we should bear in mind that the mountains are more to us than a mere proving ground of strength and alert skill. Rock-climbing should be considered a thrilling means to a more important end."
Ansel Adams, excerpted from the Sierra Club Bulletin (1936 I believe)
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healyje
Oct 14, 2005, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: ...doing a climb from the ground up, not really knowing what is going to happen next...
That is a simplification that really speaks to the heart of what climbing has [traditionally] been all about since the beginning...
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2005, 9:26 PM
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Brutus and Joseph both touch on some important ideas there, but I don't think they are all encompassing.
See above about the Europeans showing up and climbing way above our level. Some people climb for sheer difficulty. Gotta consider the setting...
Interesting thought about the french showing up with their contraversial techniques and climbing harder... a reverse microcosm of the westernization of this planet? 8^)
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dingus
Oct 14, 2005, 10:14 PM
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I think if you give Brutus's post its due, it encompasses the full spectrum of of the modern climbing game, from rap bolted sport routes to hand drilled ground up wilderness testpieces. It is a flexible approach to climbing that says when in Rome do as Romans. The Romans in this case include respect for wilderness borders, and other lines of common good. He didn't launch a diatribe against sport climbing or rap bolting. He merely suggested what all of us tell ourselves from time to time... its good to slow down and smell the coffee. Sounds right to me.
Cheers
DMT
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sandstoner
Oct 14, 2005, 10:32 PM
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fu that was sposed to be a reply to your 'rap bolting has its place'
only in sonora.
but im to stupid to even post correctly.
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shanz
Oct 14, 2005, 11:09 PM
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Lotta great points IMO though ground up is the only way to go - i know of a climber hungry to get his name on a climb and bolted it on rap and cant even climb it. Definantly not an FA and just plain Pathetic IMHO
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: fractuer, spoken like a true climber of small rocks :roll: yes once you have the hole partialy drilled it is common practice and allways has been to tell your brain that if your feet blow out or your hook pops that you will hang on to the drill to avoid the fall. i have never been successfull at this. everytime my hook has popped i have gone for the big ride regardless of how far allong the hole was. Why dont you give it a try before you diregard it as cheating :roll:
I'm not calling it cheating. I'm calling it "aid".
If this is really as typical as you suggest, all the historical meta-climbing hubub about doing routes "ground up and free" just seems all the more hilarious and stupid, to me.
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: Unless there are rocks barring you from accessing food, water, shelter, or sex, climbing them is contrived. However, hooking a natural features is not as contrived as swinging in on a rope from above.
Wha? What if the top of the cliff is easily accessible?
Refusing to rap in cases where it is clearly much easier to develop the route that way, based on some sort of neo-religious bullshit, is clearly more contrived. (Unless, of course, the actual climbing isn't really what you're interested in).
In reply to: On a lot of routes, even a good natural hook can be hard to come by, so climbing them using hooks to drill certain bolts is still using what the rock is providing in a much greater way than rap bolting near a hard move where the rock would not have permited a stance or a hook.
But the rock still would have "permitted" us to rap in....
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 11:54 PM
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In reply to: And I don't think of rap bolting of stealing lines at all. Who are these people that I am obligated to 'save' rock for? I for one am stoked when someone else has put up a route, so that I can get on it. Let them sweat, let them get their FA, and then let me do the climb. Sounds good to me!
Couldn't agree more. Putting up a route (on rap or otherwise) doesn't steal routes: it provides routes for people to climb.
Of course, if you do a shit job of it and then don't want anyone to move bolts or otherwise fix it, it could count as "stealing lines"...
8^)
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brutusofwyde
Oct 15, 2005, 12:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And I don't think of rap bolting of stealing lines at all. Who are these people that I am obligated to 'save' rock for? I for one am stoked when someone else has put up a route, so that I can get on it. Let them sweat, let them get their FA, and then let me do the climb. Sounds good to me! Couldn't agree more. Putting up a route (on rap or otherwise) doesn't steal routes: it provides routes for people to climb.
Hmm. Who, besides caughtinside, said anything about stealing routes? Who said anything about being "obligated" to save the rock besides caughtinside? RE-READ my posts, d@mit, and don't try to put words in my mouth. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself, without your "help."
In reply to: Of course, if you do a s--- job of it and then don't want anyone to move bolts or otherwise fix it, it could count as "stealing lines"... 8^)
Who are you quoting? Not me. All I did was ask a few questions, and that [apparently] got some of you quite defensive, to the point of using straw-man attacks. Wonder why?
Brutus, who, as I said before, both rap bolts with a power drill when he considers it appropriate, and also hand drills from stances when possible.
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