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caughtinside
Oct 15, 2005, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: The only ethical consideration I can think of is whether a rap bolter has "taken" away a line someone else could have done it ground up. But that leads to elitism, which is the antithesis of the individuality of climbing.
Brutus, this is what I was thinking of. Didn't mean to lump you in here. I reread your post, some good thoughts.
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fracture
Oct 15, 2005, 2:38 AM
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In reply to: Who are you quoting? Not me.
You're right. Not you.
I don't really understand why you think I was....
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norushnomore
Oct 15, 2005, 10:01 AM
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[quote="shanz"]Lotta great points IMO though ground up is the only way to go - i know of a climber hungry to get his name on a climb and bolted it on rap and cant even climb it. Definantly not an FA and just plain Pathetic IMHO
Lame, what's wrong with the project that's above his head? Plenty of those, somebody else will do it or may be even your "pathetic" climber himself.
I have one of those, no redpoint yet but I will try it next year and year after next and have my buddies try it. Pure fun.
What's pathetic is your elitist attitude. A route done right is a big effort even if you rap bolt it.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 15, 2005, 12:41 PM
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fractuer, putting routs up ground up is actually pretty fun. you should try it before you knock it. there is also no doubt that the accomplishment is far more satsifying and meaningfull than wankeing arround on top rope. it is simelar to the diference between leading and top ropeing. "It's just about the climbing" is the excuse all the wimpy whiners use when they top rope a climb rather than lead it. the same excuse is used for rap bolting. the real reason is lack of sack 8^)
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dirtineye
Oct 15, 2005, 2:22 PM
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I think it's great you ground up your FA ethics.
What kind of grinder did you use?
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brutusofwyde
Oct 15, 2005, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: I think it's great you ground up your FA ethics. What kind of grinder did you use?
I use a coffee grinder. set on "course grind" [sic] for offwidths
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bobd1953
Oct 15, 2005, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: So the question is: is that aid? Is that common practice when drilling "ground up and free"? Because it sure as hell doesn't sound free to me.... (But what do I know; from my perspective, that whole style of game is basically a joke ).
Having done both (ground up, top-down) I would have to say that top down is better style. The bolt are in the right place and are place where you want them, not were you can hang off a hook or from a bad stance.
Once you hang on the rope, piece, drill or anything else it is aid.
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dirtineye
Oct 15, 2005, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think it's great you ground up your FA ethics. What kind of grinder did you use? I use a coffee grinder. set on "course grind" [sic] for offwidths
Useful information in this thread at last!!!!
BTW BOW, A couple of weeks ago I got to use a cool offwidth technique, a back-of-arm-and-elbow to palm forearm bar, perpendicular across the crack. Made mincemeat out of a previously hard move. Just thought you might appreciate that.
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bobd1953
Oct 15, 2005, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: "It's just about the climbing" is the excuse all the wimpy whiners use when they top rope a climb rather than lead it. the same excuse is used for rap bolting. the real reason is lack of sack
No the real reason is choice. A simple matter of choice.
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landgolier
Oct 15, 2005, 5:16 PM
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Yos granite is one thing, but at some 50' east coast sport cliff the important thing is that the bolt _placements_ be determined "ground-up." The person putting up the route needs to have made enough laps to know where the logical stances are, rather than just rapping some mess they can't do and bolting it into submission. If the locations of the bolts are sound, I don't care if you drove a firetruck up to the base and drilled from the mechanical ladder. I'm not trying to be a snob, but most of the bolting going on these days isn't proud yosemite (or stone mountain, or whatever classic area you want to talk about) FA's, but just people creating nice little local sport crags. Not saying you can't be a badass 20 feet off the ground, but at places where you can walk to the top in 2 minutes the debate about whether stuff was drilled on lead is kind of silly and artificial.
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healyje
Oct 15, 2005, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: Not saying you can't be a badass 20 feet off the ground, but at places where you can walk to the top in 2 minutes the debate about whether stuff was drilled on lead is kind of silly and artificial.
Just bolt anchors if you have to and skip protection bolts all together on a crag like that. Turning every small topropeable crag into an outdoor gym for the sake of clipping sucks...
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 15, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Bobd. I have absolutly no problem with rap bolted sport climbs. i have put up a few myself an yes if you put your brain into it you can set a better rout that way. i do however feel strongly that in a trad area you should stick to the trad ethic and bolt acordingly. There is a whole history and tradition from many areas that really adds to the climbing experience and it is good to preserve that while also makeing room for harder rap bolted climbs. personaly i have had really killer experiences in places like the SD needles, south buttress of white horse, etc on ground up climbs. i look at some of the rap bolted climbs that i have put up here in Vt and it's like " that was a nice addition to the cliff" and then there are the climbs that i did ground up and it's more of a life changeing experience and somthing that you feel has a sense of history to it. How would the history of the valley pan out if all the big climbs were established top down? It really does matter in the long run when a significant climb is established ground up. besides it gives you more playing time. The first guy gets to aid it and then the young pup gets to bounce arround and free it. twice the fun out of the same piece of rock. Bobd. you really can't convince me that hanging on an old semi retired 11mm rope is as much fun as a scetch bird beak :D I will admit though that my tired tendons have been yearning to get ahold of one of them new fangled 24volt annhiloators
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glowering
Oct 15, 2005, 9:40 PM
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It seems a lot of people who haven't rap bolted assume that the bolts are put in on the initial rap down. While I'm sure that happens I think most rap bolted lines are TRed first, then bolt locations marked, then TRed again (locations adjusted), then the bolts are put in.
Back to the original question:
In reply to: If you're going ground up, but using aid to drill holes and place bolts, is that really any better style than rap bolting? Neither is drilled from a natural stance. You're either hanging from a hook, a piece, or in the case of rap bolting, a rope.
I'd say yes it's better style to aid it on bolts. It's more difficult and challenging and adapting to rock instead of making the rock adapt to you to drill the first hole from a stance or hook, then drill another hole above your head, etc. rather than just hanging on your harness.
But is it better ethically? I think that is the question. You are doing the FA in a more natural/challenging style ground up and perhaps leaving the line in place for someone who can do it in the best style (and getting the best experience out of the FA), but you are possibly creating extra holes in the rock (extra holes to be able to aid the 'blank' section, whereas free climbing it you may need less bolts because they are only for protection). Which is the greater evil?
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cracklover
Oct 15, 2005, 10:11 PM
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In reply to: Yos granite is one thing, but at some 50' east coast sport cliff the important thing is that the bolt _placements_ be determined "ground-up." The person putting up the route needs to have made enough laps to know where the logical stances are, rather than just rapping some mess they can't do and bolting it into submission. If the locations of the bolts are sound, I don't care if you drove a firetruck up to the base and drilled from the mechanical ladder. I'm not trying to be a snob, but most of the bolting going on these days isn't proud yosemite (or stone mountain, or whatever classic area you want to talk about) FA's, but just people creating nice little local sport crags. Not saying you can't be a badass 20 feet off the ground, but at places where you can walk to the top in 2 minutes the debate about whether stuff was drilled on lead is kind of silly and artificial.
It's only my opinion, but what's silly and artificial is gridbolting cliffs that are 50' at the tallest point, with easy walks to the top. If you feel like drilling, drill toprope anchors, and leave it at that.
GO
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bobd1953
Oct 15, 2005, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Bobd. you really can't convince me that hanging on an old semi retired 11mm rope is as much fun as a scetch bird beak I will admit though that my tired tendons have been yearning to get ahold of one of them new fangled 24volt annhiloators
I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have done somewhere in the range of 1,200 FA's. The best ones are the ones that other climbers enjoy and climb the most.
I also find it funny that so many people who have never put the time or effort into a first ascent have an opinion on how it should be done.
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landgolier
Oct 16, 2005, 4:19 AM
Post #66 of 73
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In reply to: In reply to: Yos granite is one thing, but at some 50' east coast sport cliff the important thing is that the bolt _placements_ be determined "ground-up." The person putting up the route needs to have made enough laps to know where the logical stances are, rather than just rapping some mess they can't do and bolting it into submission. If the locations of the bolts are sound, I don't care if you drove a firetruck up to the base and drilled from the mechanical ladder. I'm not trying to be a snob, but most of the bolting going on these days isn't proud yosemite (or stone mountain, or whatever classic area you want to talk about) FA's, but just people creating nice little local sport crags. Not saying you can't be a badass 20 feet off the ground, but at places where you can walk to the top in 2 minutes the debate about whether stuff was drilled on lead is kind of silly and artificial. It's only my opinion, but what's silly and artificial is gridbolting cliffs that are 50' at the tallest point, with easy walks to the top. If you feel like drilling, drill toprope anchors, and leave it at that. GO
True in theory, but lots of harder sport climbs are overhung such that TR can be dangerous, whether because of ground fall or swingers into other parts of the cliff or trees, not to mention that the idea of working a route at or past your limit on TR is sort of shot when every fall means a lower off because you can't swing back in. Also, while some places do have mega-short hikes to the top, there are plenty of places where getting to the top is possible but a pain, and the ability to just lead and go (or lead easy adjacent routes to set TR) is what makes the place a great climbing area [cough]Rumney[cough]
In response to a different post, I'm not saying people string rap lines and just bolt away, but I am saying that too much stuff gets "proj bolted" where bolts are placed long before the route goes on TR, and the bolt placements are more theory than reality.
These arguments are always weirdly regional. I think a lot of western climbers just don't get what east coast cragging is like.
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healyje
Oct 16, 2005, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: True in theory, but lots of harder sport climbs are overhung such that TR can be dangerous, whether because of ground fall or swingers into other parts of the cliff or trees, not to mention that the idea of working a route at or past your limit on TR is sort of shot when every fall means a lower off because you can't swing back in.
Yep, we did roofs back home on TR some where the rope didn't start to engage until the crux and wasn't fully engage until after it, we all took some pretty stiff lower body pounds at least once on that climb. A couple of years after we left, someone broke his back on another one we had put up while coming back through the trees after having made it out through them at first. We were all well aware you were "runout" lower on the route when we were putting it up. The very best part of TR'ing roofs and hangs is no previewing, no cleaning, and most of all no dogging - figure it out or fly trying. Way, way more committing and demanding than simply slapping a bunch of bolts in and dogging (not working) your way up it...
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2005, 8:39 PM
Post #68 of 73
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Yos granite is one thing, but at some 50' east coast sport cliff the important thing is that the bolt _placements_ be determined "ground-up." The person putting up the route needs to have made enough laps to know where the logical stances are, rather than just rapping some mess they can't do and bolting it into submission. If the locations of the bolts are sound, I don't care if you drove a firetruck up to the base and drilled from the mechanical ladder. I'm not trying to be a snob, but most of the bolting going on these days isn't proud yosemite (or stone mountain, or whatever classic area you want to talk about) FA's, but just people creating nice little local sport crags. Not saying you can't be a badass 20 feet off the ground, but at places where you can walk to the top in 2 minutes the debate about whether stuff was drilled on lead is kind of silly and artificial. It's only my opinion, but what's silly and artificial is gridbolting cliffs that are 50' at the tallest point, with easy walks to the top. If you feel like drilling, drill toprope anchors, and leave it at that. GO True in theory, but lots of harder sport climbs are overhung such that TR can be dangerous, whether because of ground fall or swingers into other parts of the cliff or trees, not to mention that the idea of working a route at or past your limit on TR is sort of shot when every fall means a lower off because you can't swing back in.
In real life, every case is unique. If it's all a big roof low down, I would imagine that throwing a bunch of bolts on it wouldn't really help you that much. If it's overhanging, but not just a big roof, might it just make sense to throw one bolt in the middle as a directional?
In reply to: Also, while some places do have mega-short hikes to the top, there are plenty of places where getting to the top is possible but a pain, and the ability to just lead and go (or lead easy adjacent routes to set TR) is what makes the place a great climbing area [cough]Rumney[cough]
Yup, Rumney is a perfect case where setting up a TR from the hike is not really feasible on most of the cliffs. I think the style of climbing on the rock should be determined mostly by the rock itself, and Rumney lends itself well (for the most part) to sport.
GO
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landgolier
Oct 16, 2005, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: True in theory, but lots of harder sport climbs are overhung such that TR can be dangerous, whether because of ground fall or swingers into other parts of the cliff or trees, not to mention that the idea of working a route at or past your limit on TR is sort of shot when every fall means a lower off because you can't swing back in. Yep, we did roofs back home on TR some where the rope didn't start to engage until the crux and wasn't fully engage until after it, we all took some pretty stiff lower body pounds at least once on that climb. A couple of years after we left, someone broke his back on another one we had put up while coming back through the trees after having made it out through them at first. We were all well aware you were "runout" lower on the route when we were putting it up. The very best part of TR'ing roofs and hangs is no previewing, no cleaning, and most of all no dogging - figure it out or fly trying. Way, way more committing and demanding than simply slapping a bunch of bolts in and dogging ( not working) your way up it...
Danger does not equal style
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jaybro
Oct 16, 2005, 10:58 PM
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Is this this the most naive thread ever, or a modestly successful, five page troll?
Several question lumped together.
Style of ASCENT.
Aid climbing is climbing, a mode of ASCENT.
Rappelling is a controlled fall, a mode of DESCENT. It isn't climbing.
"once you weighed a piece it's Aid.." Correct! It's aid CLIMBING, not to be confused with rappelling.
Climbing is a better style of climbing than is not climbing.
That concludes the part about FA Style.
The second question is about whether top down, or bottom up, bolt placement inherently make a better climb.
The answer is Neither.
Circumstances can dictate feasibility; Overhangs can be hard to Rap, Rap in climbs can lend themselves to rap bolting, lack of summit access can make ground up the only way to go.
There are more rap-bolted climbs with bojed clips. Ground up ascents tend to favor run-outs.
It's rare that you can't drill (one way or another) from a stance that you can clip from, but it happens. You can give yourself permission to ad a bolt on the descent.
The key is to pay attention when placing bolts. Do you want a safe, generic climb? Make it so. Do you want a 'sporty' climb that reflects the the FA-ers experience? Do it ala B-Y.
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healyje
Oct 17, 2005, 7:26 AM
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In reply to: Danger does not equal style
Dogging doesn't equal style.
And by our ethic then you would have had none. That was our ethic then and I can assure you, there's no getting up any of the the roofs we did unless your [climbing] style was utterly impeccable. There is no comparison between the demands of maintaining that style, figuring out and doing the moves, and staying on it at the same time vs. dogging your way up it - style, please - would you like a latte and Vanity Fair with that.
Oh, yeah I forgot, we also didn't use chalk...
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caughtinside
Oct 17, 2005, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: I avoided replying to the thread completely, due to my lack of experience with the subject matter, until I ran accross the post that seemed to be suggesting turning every TR cliff into a sport cliff. This seemed stupid to me, so I said so.
Yeah, I was thinking a bit about this over the weekend. The problem is that it's hard to frame the question, because everyone will think of different areas/rock when they consider it.
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