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chizoad
Oct 26, 2005, 9:30 PM
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Hi all,
I have little experience setting up toprope anchors, and have only climbed with well-versed climbers a few times. I set up this anchor at Point Dume a month or so ago:
http://www.brian1.net/...0051002/p1070135.jpg
The webbing is attached via one locking biner to a hanger (rather than the rings) above. I don't have a pic but the 3 biners were even at the bottom when the rope was threaded.
One obvious problem to me: I assume I should have put the draws thru the hangers rather than the rings. One less thing to fail.
Feel free to fire away, I'd rather get these things right.
Thanks,
Chiz
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mrsuicide
Oct 26, 2005, 9:35 PM
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looks fine to me. i probably wouldnt have even used the 3rd point with the webbing. just clip and go. and as you said clipping to the hanger is generally more acceptable than the rap rings.
i also have a draw with 2 lockers on it if i feel the need for some extra security.
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rockrat_co
Oct 26, 2005, 9:41 PM
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I would also consider it plenty redundant just clipping in to the two hangers shown in the photo. But I suppose it never really hurts to take extra precautions.
-rockrat_co-
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billcoe_
Oct 26, 2005, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: One obvious problem to me: I assume I should have put the draws thru the hangers rather than the rings. One less thing to fail. Feel free to fire away, I'd rather get these things right. Thanks, Chiz
Hey Chiz, whats to critique? I'd climb on that all day long just like it is. Sure you could have avoided the rings, but those look like new Fixe's which each test higher than your rope don't they? They have one that hits 50 Kn, low test for fixe is like 30 KN.
You have your non-lockers opposed and reversed and a locker too (I like that extra locker, nice). Works for me.
The bolts look killer.
All Day long.
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rmcclmbr
Oct 26, 2005, 9:43 PM
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"techniqually" you shouldn't use quickdraws for the top rope anchor. You should have used two locking biners in the bolts, attached another two pieces of webbing, and two more pear biners at the bottom. You were right about putting the biners through the bolts and not the rings. I also assume you used a water knot for the webbing. Now even though these are what were taught to me on my top rope course, I'd still climb from what you have from there. I have even climbed from one draw in one bolt before (I won't do that again though). You also have one locking biner at the base there, so I think you'd be just fine. It's equalized, it's redundant, just not using locking biners on your draws. I'd say have at 'er.
Ryan
P.S. Even though this anchor system would do the trick, I suggest you take a top rope course, cause they offer a bunch more facts and things to consider while climbing, that can't really be summed up in one post.
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rmcclmbr
Oct 26, 2005, 9:44 PM
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"techniqually" you shouldn't use quickdraws for the top rope anchor. You should have used two locking biners in the bolts, attached another two pieces of webbing, and two more pear biners at the bottom. You were right about putting the biners through the bolts and not the rings. I also assume you used a water knot for the webbing. Now even though these are what were taught to me on my top rope course, I'd still climb from what you have from there. I have even climbed from one draw in one bolt before (I won't do that again though). You also have one locking biner at the base there, so I think you'd be just fine. It's equalized, it's redundant, just not using locking biners on your draws. I'd say have at 'er.
Ryan
P.S. Even though this anchor system would do the trick, I suggest you take a top rope course, cause they offer a bunch more facts and things to consider while climbing, that can't really be summed up in one post.
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crimpandgo
Oct 26, 2005, 9:49 PM
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I think most will contend the quickdraws should be clipped directly to the hangers and not to the rings. Less hardware to fail
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rock_fencer
Oct 26, 2005, 9:51 PM
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Looks good as long as the biners are opposed when you clip in the rope. I like the safety line too. When i was there the guy that took me and my bro he didnt even bother to use draws just cliped straight biners to the hangars. The rapel rings are a new addition i think. good job though.
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sticky_fingers
Oct 26, 2005, 9:51 PM
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Hey Chiz,
Get rid of the third piece (webbing and locker). Not necessary and some might argue that if you're swinging around (because of the climb) the locker could push a gate open, or get hung up, or rub against any other part of the anchor, etc.
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chizoad
Oct 26, 2005, 9:56 PM
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Any idea the reasoning for not using draws in an anchor? What about locking draws?
Chiz
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jimfix
Oct 26, 2005, 10:42 PM
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Two draws is sweet as for top rope, however these aren't even acting as your anchor. The locker on the webbing is as it is the highest point.
Use a webolett etc. to equalise the anchor. At the moment all the force of a fall is going through one bolt. By clipping the hangers you might avoid this, but you should still use a long sling in pref to two draws to equalise properly.
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crimpandgo
Oct 26, 2005, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Any idea the reasoning for not using draws in an anchor? What about locking draws? Chiz
You can use draws in an anchor. Sport routes are set up that way all the time. Simple to set up, simple to break down. locking biners can be used on the draws for added safety.
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billcoe_
Oct 26, 2005, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: "techniqually" you shouldn't use quickdraws for the top rope anchor.
I didn't know this, why wouldn't you?
___________________________________________________________
BTW, good advise about a class, you might check in with some of the local colleges and see if they are doing anything.
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rrrADAM
Oct 26, 2005, 10:59 PM
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Looks safe enough.
One thing though...
This is a rap station, as evidenved by the rap rings, so you should have clipped your draws into the hangers, not the rings, but not out of it being a possible point of failure. Instead if someone was rapping down, they would still be able to use the station without your draws congesting the rap rings. :wink:
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robbleebob
Oct 26, 2005, 11:13 PM
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Always heard that opposed quickdraws were fine for an anchor on a sport route. I know that locking-biners were safer, but then wouldn't not climbing be safer too? Too much sarcasm, sorry, but should lockers be a requirement?
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alex234
Oct 26, 2005, 11:17 PM
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looks good to me man.
only thing i would suggest is using lockers and cliping right into the hangers. your caribiners are opposite and opposed though so lockers are not entirely necessary, but they would be an added safety precaution.
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vegastradguy
Oct 26, 2005, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: "techniqually" you shouldn't use quickdraws for the top rope anchor.
bzzzt. wrong answer.
two draws, make sure the biners are opposite and opposed and it's bomber.
lockers would add no safety margin to the anchor- they are not stronger than non-lockers (most are weaker, actually), and two biners opposite and opposed is more than adequate in place of a locker.
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roboclimber
Oct 27, 2005, 12:08 AM
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As was stated previously, the anchor is useable. I like extending the set-up off of the hangers with webbing, but that is my personal preference. The draws are a little short for my liking. I prefer not using two lockers at the powerpoint because of crossloading on the gates; it has less to do with failure, and more to do with wear and tear on gear. Three opposite and opposed ovals at the powerpoint is what I use. Anyway, the set-up has a few things that could be changed, but it is very safe overall.
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dschultz
Oct 27, 2005, 12:41 AM
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I'd climb on it and feel secure doing so. If this was to be used all day by a large group I would go with the before mentioned extension, lockers, and of course clip into the bolts. One item not mentioned is the angle formed by the two draws where the gates are opposed. The anchors appear close enough to not be an issue but keep in mind how increasing the angle impacts the anchor bolts and the system as a whole.
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jimdavis
Oct 27, 2005, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: "techniqually" you shouldn't use quickdraws for the top rope anchor. You should have used two locking biners in the bolts, attached another two pieces of webbing, and two more pear biners at the bottom. You were right about putting the biners through the bolts and not the rings. I also assume you used a water knot for the webbing. Now even though these are what were taught to me on my top rope course, I'd still climb from what you have from there. I have even climbed from one draw in one bolt before (I won't do that again though). You also have one locking biner at the base there, so I think you'd be just fine. It's equalized, it's redundant, just not using locking biners on your draws. I'd say have at 'er. Ryan P.S. Even though this anchor system would do the trick, I suggest you take a top rope course, cause they offer a bunch more facts and things to consider while climbing, that can't really be summed up in one post.
Where'd you learn that two draws is "technicaly" wrong? Who thought the course you were talking about, what course was it?
Use what you have. Looks fine, I'd oppose those biners when they were clipped, maybe put the straight gates on the bottom, have the bent gates on top with gates facing down and out. That'd be really picky using draws...
If you only really have quick draws...that ooks good. If you've got some slings, cool; if you want to use an 11mm static line with a doublde 8 on a bight with 5 steel lockers...go ahead!
You'd be supprised how many climbers there are that don't know what terms "backclipped" or "opposite, opposed" mean.
It's always good to get feedback. Do you know some anchoring principles? redundant, equalized, ect? Think through your anchor...if the gear/ bolts are good...and your following some basic anchoring principles...have confidence in your anchors!
Keep at it man!
Jim
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ctardi
Oct 27, 2005, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: Two draws is sweet as for top rope, however these aren't even acting as your anchor. The locker on the webbing is as it is the highest point. Use a webolett etc. to equalise the anchor. At the moment all the force of a fall is going through one bolt. By clipping the hangers you might avoid this, but you should still use a long sling in pref to two draws to equalise properly.
Read the origional post, they were eqaul. :wink:
Looks good, other then the mistake you mentioned!
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climbingaggie03
Oct 27, 2005, 4:23 AM
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I think 2 draws is plenty good for a TR, If you feel like using slings to reduce the angle some and/or lockers to beef things up a bit it couldn't hurt, but c'mon 2 new ultra bomber bolts with opposite and opposed draws. You could hang a VW off that.
I do agree that it is better to clip the hangers instead of the rings, unless there is a risk of the biners getting loaded funny, or opened because of the angle.
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rmcclmbr
Oct 27, 2005, 5:21 AM
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Just to respond to some comments made: The guy that I took the top rope course was very strict. He places LARGE emphasis on safety and has frowned on better setups than this. I'm not going to say who, cause it doesn't really matter, he wants to be as safe as possible. I, however, realize that this system is just fine, and using draws on a top rope ancher is fine. I have used a system similar to this, only I put a piece of webbing between the rap rings for good equalization. Later guys and gals and good climbing to all
Ryan
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pumpout
Oct 27, 2005, 5:39 AM
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This is a rap station two draws opposed is fine for LOWER somebody if you were to LEAD this climb and leave draws in below, it is not good enough for taking falls or if the route wanders around a bit it will not be good for swings either.
A. Get rid of the third bolt with sling on it, too much redundancy and not properly equalized, all forces are currently on the top bolt, if it were to fail it would shock load your two quickdraws lower down resulting in a possible unclipping and you dying.
B. It is OK to clip into the FIXE rings not necessary for the bolt hangers, the whole bolt is tested to more than 20KN. There's not much space there for the biners anyway making it akward.
C. Clip with into the bolts and use a self equalizing anchor (excellent for toproping) and put limiting knots to prevent extension. Use two opposing lockers at your master point and you are very safe (that is unless the bolts were drilled by somebody who didn't know what they were doing.
Get John Long's "Climbing Anchors" but in the meantime check out:
http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors2.2.pdf
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pbjosh
Oct 27, 2005, 5:47 AM
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That anchor is fine. The rap rings are strong enough. 2 opposite and opposed biners is an ideal toprope anchor.
All the people nitpicking or suggesting that it is "technically" wrong or that you need an autoequalizing anchor should stfu and stop posting to threads like this. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make you right, even if you are the kings of 5.8 toproping.
About the only valid comment was that if this were a rap station that someone else wanted to use while you were occupying it, it's rude to be through the rings not the draws.
josh
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