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neurostar
Nov 3, 2005, 6:13 PM
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I've got a pair of ice boots (Sportiva K4S), that I'm using for mountaineering and ice climbing.
I'd also like to get back into skiing (which I used to do frequently, but haven't done in the past 6 or 7 years). However, I don't have much money to buy new gear.
I was wondering about the possibility of buying an AT setup that'd be compatible with my ice boots, so I wouldn't have to buy new boots this year.
The reason I want to go with an AT setup is so I can do a little bit of downhill skiing (which pales in comparison to what I've skied on out west), as well as use the setup (with skins) for approaches. I figure this will be the most versatile setup (as well as the most cost effective at this point). Eventually, I'd buy Ski Mountaineering boots, but I just can't afford that now.
As far as my budget, it's extremely low... I'd definitely go used for both the skis and bindings. I know absolutely nothing about AT gear (or ski gear in general for that matter)...
Any ideas or suggestions as to how I could make this work?
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 3, 2005, 6:19 PM
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I believe most silveretta bindings will be compatible with any ice boot that is crampon-compatible at the toe and heel (as opposed to jsut strap crampons). the catch is they only eject front to back and not side to side (last time I looked) but you should be able to find something those boots will fit into...
rochester ? swain ? :( i feel for you after doing my time in buffalo...
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altelis
Nov 3, 2005, 6:19 PM
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that'll work for skinning purposes but you do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to ski in anything but ski boots....you could get a pair of AT boots to ice climb in, but i definitely wouldn't ski in ice boots. not fun, not a lot of support
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 3, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: that'll work for skinning purposes but you do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to ski in anything but ski boots....you could get a pair of AT boots to ice climb in, but i definitely wouldn't ski in ice boots. not fun, not a lot of support
yes- but there are those few that have done major descents in this setup, so it can be done. if all you are doing is banging laps on flats in western NY I don't think its all that big a deal - just don't take them to tuckerman's...
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neurostar
Nov 3, 2005, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: I believe most silveretta bindings will be compatible with any ice boot that is crampon-compatible at the toe and heel (as opposed to jsut strap crampons). the catch is they only eject front to back and not side to side (last time I looked) but you should be able to find something those boots will fit into...
Hmm. Ok. I'll check into that.
I did some more reading after I posted, and I saw mention that some of the Fritschi Damir bindings will take ice boots.
In reply to: rochester ? swain ? :( i feel for you after doing my time in buffalo...
Yea... After having learned to ski in Idaho.. it's gonna be depressing. Luckily I'll be back in Idaho for xmas. ;)
In reply to: that'll work for skinning purposes but you do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to ski in anything but ski boots....you could get a pair of AT boots to ice climb in, but i definitely wouldn't ski in ice boots. not fun, not a lot of support
Yea, I realize it's not the optimal solution. But I really can't afford new boots this year. I'm just lookin' for something to get me by for the season, and then next year I can think about getting some real AT boots.
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neurostar
Nov 3, 2005, 6:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: that'll work for skinning purposes but you do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to ski in anything but ski boots....you could get a pair of AT boots to ice climb in, but i definitely wouldn't ski in ice boots. not fun, not a lot of support yes- but there are those few that have done major descents in this setup, so it can be done. if all you are doing is banging laps on flats in western NY I don't think its all that big a deal - just don't take them to tuckerman's...
I suppose I could rent if I'm going to be doing any hardcore downhill...
I was just thinking an AT setup would be most versatile in the long term.. it'd let me climb and approach now, and ski once I get boots later on.
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weekendclimber
Nov 3, 2005, 7:39 PM
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I've been working on getting an AT Setup and all the people I've spoken to who have been doing it for a long time have said the silvretta's are the best solution. I've been trying to find a used pair of 500's or the Easy Go's. As long as they have the wire bail at the toe, it will fit just about anything. Just don't go cliff jumping with them...
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atg200
Nov 3, 2005, 9:47 PM
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the fritschis definitely will not work with ice climbing boots - at least definitely not the the freerides, explores, or titanal IIIs. not all of the silvrettas work either - make sure to bring your boots with you when you check out bindings.
skiing in ice climbing boots is like shooting rapids in a rowboat. get a paper route and you'll be able to buy a new pair of boots in a few months. if your feet are size 9 or so i have a pair of scarpa magics that i'll sell you pretty cheap.
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q
Deleted
Nov 3, 2005, 10:27 PM
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I've been using plastic ice boots or leather mountain boots on AT bindings for 30 years, and its a great setup. I've always been a proponent of minimal gear. Performance is more up to the operator than the equipment.
I've skiied hundreds of days at downhill areas in that setup, as well as approaches, and glacier expeditions.
Its a great set-up. Sure, if you have the bucks, buy a specific tool for every job. But if you don't, just get out and climb, rather than working to save $ for gear rather than climbing.
The posters who say don't (or you can't) go downhill in that setup are wrong. Most all AT bindings these days have both toe and heel release. Just go to a shop and get fitted.
If you can find a pair of Ramer bindings (no longer produced) they are super. Used giant slalom skiis work well too.
You can sure ski alot better in ice boots than you can ice climb in AT boots.
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neurostar
Nov 3, 2005, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: the fritschis definitely will not work with ice climbing boots - at least definitely not the the freerides, explores, or titanal IIIs. not all of the silvrettas work either - make sure to bring your boots with you when you check out bindings. skiing in ice climbing boots is like shooting rapids in a rowboat. get a paper route and you'll be able to buy a new pair of boots in a few months. if your feet are size 9 or so i have a pair of scarpa magics that i'll sell you pretty cheap.
Unfortunately I've already got the extra job.. which is paying for my ice gear (which is #1 priority ;))
My feet are size 11... Thanks though.
In reply to: I've been using plastic ice boots or leather mountain boots on AT bindings for 30 years, and its a great setup. I've always been a proponent of minimal gear. Performance is more up to the operator than the equipment.
Yea. I'm sure AT boots will be better.. but I'm not planning on skiing super technical stuff anytime soon. I'm just lookin' to get a basic setup, more for approaches to climbs than actual ski mountaineering. But, I'd like to be able to get into that later on, once I can afford the boots.
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cologman
Nov 3, 2005, 11:15 PM
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I used to ski N climb both in a pair of Galibier Super Guides ( you young bucks won't know what those are). Did some gnarly descents and plenty of eye-opening climbing, including stuff in AK. Operator has more to do with it than anything. And praise the day when releasable AT bindings came around. Done plenty of headers with skiis firmly anchored to the end of the ole leg. :lol:
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atg200
Nov 4, 2005, 12:56 AM
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In reply to: The posters who say don't (or you can't) go downhill in that setup are wrong. Most all AT bindings these days have both toe and heel release. Just go to a shop and get fitted.
heel and toe release has nothing to do with whether or not the boots work with the binding. i tried my scarpa invernos with just about every binding i could get my hands on at neptune mountaineering, and they only work with some models of silvrettas. the shape of the boot, the stiffness of the boot, and the size of the welts make a huge difference in compatibility with modern AT bindings.
some people ski hard terrain in floppy old boots, but some people also climb runout 5.12 slabs in EBs. why make things harder on yourself than you have to? besides, imagine how good those skiiers on ancient gear would be using modern equipment? yesterday's testpieces get tracked out today.
the neat thing about skiing is that you'll eventually end up with a quiver. i currently have a rock ski setup with old silvrettas to use for the very rare times i ski in plastic doubles and a heavy AT/resort setup with fritschis and high stiff boots. this year i'll add a very light setup with dynafits for longer touring days.
there is no reason at all to buy this stuff new either. look for ski swaps in your area, or use it as an excuse to come to utah or colorado for one of the biggies at black diamond or neptunes.
finally, check out telemarktips.com for way better info than you'll get here.
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atg200
Nov 4, 2005, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: The posters who say don't (or you can't) go downhill in that setup are wrong. Most all AT bindings these days have both toe and heel release. Just go to a shop and get fitted.
heel and toe release has nothing to do with whether or not the boots work with the binding. i tried my scarpa invernos with just about every binding i could get my hands on at neptune mountaineering, and they only work with some models of silvrettas. the shape of the boot, the stiffness of the boot, and the size of the welts make a huge difference in compatibility with modern AT bindings.
some people ski hard terrain in floppy old boots, but some people also climb runout 5.12 slabs in EBs. why make things harder on yourself than you have to? besides, imagine how good those skiiers on ancient gear would be using modern equipment? yesterday's testpieces get tracked out today.
the neat thing about skiing is that you'll eventually end up with a quiver. i currently have a rock ski setup with old silvrettas to use for the very rare times i ski in plastic doubles and a heavy AT/resort setup with fritschis and high stiff boots. this year i'll add a very light setup with dynafits for longer touring days.
there is no reason at all to buy this stuff new either. look for ski swaps in your area, or use it as an excuse to come to utah or colorado for one of the biggies at black diamond or neptunes.
finally, check out telemarktips.com for way better info than you'll get here.
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gottarock
Nov 4, 2005, 2:07 AM
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for what its worth... Siveretta 404's and 505's will fit your boots. Sounds like you will need a large. Any alpine ski (used or new older models) will work great for touring. AND they will do just fine heading down a slope as well. Some of us learned to ski on very similar gear. Might want to watch the terrain and just ski em light and easy.
yes, modern technology is a wonderous thing but... it ain't the plane its the pilot.
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jhwnewengland
Nov 4, 2005, 2:10 AM
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The only current binding that will accept mountaineering boots is the Silvretta 500. Forget Fritschi and other Silvrettas. There is probably an old Silvretta that was the precursor to the 500 that will work, but I don't know what it was. It would need to look like the 500 (wire toe bail, heel lever kind of like a crampon heel). The Silvretta 500 retails for $349, and it's really hard to find on the used market.
As many posters have stated, skiing in mountaineering boots (especially leathers) sucks. You will not be able to turn in difficult snow, and you will fall a lot. Don't use this for tough ski mountaineering descents! It's a great setup for approaches though.
But seriously, are you really going to be approaching a lot of ice climbs on skis? Are you going to the Alaska backcountry? If you're in NY for a while you won't really need an approach setup. I have one for the Adirondacks but I rarely use it. If you want to ski get ski stuff. There are better bindings than the Silvretta 500 for anything other than approaches.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 4, 2005, 3:32 AM
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In reply to: As many posters have stated, skiing in mountaineering boots (especially leathers) sucks. You will not be able to turn in difficult snow, and you will fall a lot.
Practice. It's very doable.
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cclarke
Nov 4, 2005, 3:50 PM
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Roy-
What type of turns do you make in climbing boots and what type of climbing boots are you using? I can only do very gentle parallel turns or a weird stemming turn with or without a step despite lots of practice.
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hmronnow
Nov 4, 2005, 4:24 PM
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I've used Koflach Arctis Expe (old limegreen model) with silvretta 500 and 130cm (about 4 ft) skis for some years. It is a great combination for uphill, and the Koflach is also quite comfortable for ice-climbing, although they don't give anyway near the feel and control you get in more dedicated ice-climbing boots.
I agree that going downhill in such a short and soft setup is more difficult and less fun that a 'real' setup. But it is quite doable. Anything lift-operated areas can thow at you is ok. Even the steepest powder or icy slopes give me little problem. The problem I find is when there is almost carrying crust, where you often fall through - lack of forward-backward stiffness in the boot send you on the nose into the snow when the skis sink and you get stuck under the crust. This problem becomes worse the flatter the terrain (in steep terrain you can jump turn).
I know the silvretta 500 bindings take any boots, because the front is just a stiff cable. Most other have plastic fronts, which may work with some boots and not with others - you must test this.
There exist various smaller producers of very simple at bindings (no release mechanisms), which will work with mountaineering boots (e.g. sup suppliers to CAMP and Salomon short-skis), but I have not had chance to test these.
If you are looking for a way to approach ice or winter climbs, my setup is close to ideal. Have taken me to several 4000+ in the alps 14ers in colorado.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 4, 2005, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: Roy- What type of turns do you make in climbing boots and what type of climbing boots are you using? I can only do very gentle parallel turns or a weird stemming turn with or without a step despite lots of practice.
Mostly parallel turns. But when the snow really gets funky, you can do a modified fixed-heel telemark. Boots don't matter that much if you learn to ski centered. The main problem for naysayers is they don't ride lifts in mountaineering gear and instead try to learn in the backcountry; big mistake. It takes a lot of vertical without a heavy pack first.
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drytooler
Nov 4, 2005, 5:53 PM
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i am trying a sett up whit Salomon snow blades and la sportiva Nepal top boots it fits fine but i don't now if it Will ski also. i am trying next week.
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hmronnow
Nov 4, 2005, 6:06 PM
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I don't think the snowblades have hinged binding - i.e. you can't walk uphill with them.
Here are some so-called approach skis:
http://www.pistehors.com/articles/backcountry-snowboarding/approach-skis.htm
Main problem with them is that it is not allowed to sell skis with non-release bindings longer than 1 meter. I find my 1.3m skis still on the short side, but wouldnt go above 150 simply because the soft boot cannot manouver longer skis.
I have been in contact with the small swiss company producing the bingind for the kong grimper (see link above), and they are willing to sell the binding seperately.
Henrik
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drytooler
Nov 4, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Do you now the new Kong skies? http://www.kong.it/doc301.htm
i want to put those bindings on my skies.
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drytooler
Nov 4, 2005, 6:17 PM
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your link didn't work but you did mean the same :lol:
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jeldship
Nov 5, 2005, 12:42 AM
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neurostar
Nov 6, 2005, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: But seriously, are you really going to be approaching a lot of ice climbs on skis? Are you going to the Alaska backcountry? If you're in NY for a while you won't really need an approach setup. I have one for the Adirondacks but I rarely use it. If you want to ski get ski stuff. There are better bindings than the Silvretta 500 for anything other than approaches.
I'm only in NY until May.. then I'm headin' back out West...
I'm just trying to avoid having to buy multiple sets of gear if I can get away with just one pair of skis/bindings for now.. I can't afford multiple pairs.
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