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jbone
Aug 7, 2002, 9:14 PM
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DO other Climbing scenes have their Villans?
We in Arizona have a few, Deidre Burton is one. She is looked down on for her actions at Jacks Canyon about projects over the last few years. I'm sure I am referred to as a villan for some of my Videotaping...
How about that dude back East who chops all the bolts in the north east crags?
How about here on the site? Anyone you need to watch out for? Sometimes these examples help demonstrate the reasoning behind ethics in regions.
Takes some gut's to respond to this one..
J-Bone
"Friendly neighborhood villan"
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itsallvbtillyoufall
Aug 7, 2002, 9:18 PM
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"DO other Climbing scenes have their Villans? "
What do you mean villans? Like people that sabatoge routs or holds? Peolpe that try to hurt you while climbing?
One place I climb, there are some cholos that hate whiteboys. That can be hard getting to the area at times.
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c_plante
Aug 7, 2002, 9:48 PM
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Anyone who climbs at joe rockheads in toronto canada is evil in my books. I've been there twice, and never again. THe people there are just too rude, maybe not villainous per se.
christian
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aid312
Aug 7, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Up here in the Northeast we have a guy that chops every bolt in sight. This is the same guy that jbone was talking about. His name is Ken Nichols. From what I have heard he has chopped bolts at a majority of the climbing areas up here. The thing about it is he had actually published a guide book when there were still bolts on the climbs and noted the bolts in the book.
Shortly after the book was published he went out and chopped them all.
He has stated to some people that if he sees any of the bolts go back up he will destroy the climbs.
Recently there was a climb destroyed up at Castle Crag. I wonder who did it.
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drewcoleman
Aug 7, 2002, 10:22 PM
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Everyone acts like they own the crag. It is all of ours. I am not condoning the actions of the "Bolt Cutters" but they have just as much access to the rock as you or I. I know how frustrating this is. My friends and I just set a route, come to find out some one took it down! This makes me mad for more than one reason. Not just runing someone's hard work but I am on a limited budget and I can not afford to keep replacing bolts and anchors every time some "Save the Trees" enviromentalist jackass destroys my sh*$! Touchy Topic.
Drew
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biggernhell
Aug 7, 2002, 10:29 PM
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MU HAW HAW HAW HAWHA
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 10:34 PM
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I'm a villan! . . I'm a villan! . .
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:40 PM
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Jbone:
I have talked to Deidre and Jim a few times I was at Jack's early in its development, they always seemed like very nice people. However, I agree that trying to hold their projects for that long starts to get ridiculous. I think a good rule of thumbs is if your trying it at least once a week (as in that is your focus of your session) then I think the red tag should stand for as long as it takes. However, if your projects have cobwebs on them from lack of attempts and neglect, they should be opened up. also, you should avoid having more than 1 or 2 serious projects at a time.
As for climbing villans, hmmm, I could say that some in SoCal would have considered me a villian about 5 years ago. I had a website (much like Ariznabouldering) called What's Up SoCal where I put up topos of areas and new routes. I even included many "secret areas" and this drew the rath of some of their developers. Magherittavile was a prime exmample of that. I also put topos on the web for The Hood @ Charleston before any where availabe, made topos for Mt Clark pre-Rockfax, NJC, and other spots.
I pissed off some people for bolting some shorter stuff at Boxsprings, though everyone that climbs there still to this day send me emails thanking me for the routes I put up.
Frustration Creek is an area that has a bit of controversy associated around it for various reasons, from chipped holds, fixed ropes and there subsequent removals, spreading word about the area, topos, stealing lines, etc... All in all though, regardless if you agree with the ethics of the area, it by far the best sport climbing in Socal bar none.
When I moved up north I briefly put a topo out for Jailhouse which really caused locals to get in a bit of a rage, though the topo did not have directions just the listing of the routes. Ironically enough, everyone wanted a copy of it THEN they got mad, lol.
I have sinced moved onto a different area and have been developing routes in peace on limestone. Word will soon get out though as the climbing is fantastc and features a good spread of grades all bolted for fun sport climbing not this egotistical I climb 5.12+ therefore I will only bolt hard routes or put 1 bolt on a 60' 5.10a. I'd rather develop a solid area for fun at all grades rather than a personal playground.
Villians....they are what sometimes make climbing more interesting. The spice of life is found in the unexpected and sometimes controversial. In the end, I have some fun stories that never fail to gain rapt attention of my friends while sipping beers around the campfire. Sure I have pissed a few off along the way, but I have made many many more friends and for that I would not change a thing.
NOTE: I would NEVER agree that what Ken Nichols is doing is acceptable and were it he was pulling this crap out west he would be quickly be pulverized into a bloody pulp. I have no clue to why people out East put up with that shit.
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:48 PM
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Gawd,
You would be a short lived villian locally All it would take is you being in the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. me showing up and catching you, and your career as a villan would end
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2002-08-07 15:48 ]
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biggernhell
Aug 7, 2002, 10:50 PM
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Oh sh it!
This is gonna turn into another (responible use of bolts flaming asshole thread.
I can see it coming.
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mtnjohn
Aug 7, 2002, 10:50 PM
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Intersting, people who chop bolts are villians but people who over bolt or bolt where theres gear placements are NOT villians?
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 10:53 PM
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GOD BLESS THE VILLAN STOPPERS!
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:55 PM
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Quote:Intersting, people who chop bolts are villians but people who over bolt or bolt where theres gear placements are NOT villians?
Ahh but you assume too much grasshopper Ken Nichols is not chopping due over bolting or bolting next to cracks but chopping because he has a personal vendetta aginst bolts in general.
Very different scenarios.
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Hey Gawd, I don't think this is the place to take things that far. You might want to PM someone if you want to get personal.
2 cents. M
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 11:24 PM
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So Gawd tell me this. Did you consult the people who placed the bolts that you chopped?
Did you do it in front of their faces or hide till dark or when noone was around?
I cannot vouch why you chopped the routes but unless you talked it over with the bolt placers then you are the one that was not understaning your self styled enemies.
As for a threat, well that would on be true if you were local and decided to chop bolts locally. I have yet to have someone stand up to their tough guy convictions in person. Most people slink off with their tail between their legs and wait till everyone is gone or its dark before chopping anything.
The very definition of a coward in my book.
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 11:26 PM
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All further responses to Gawd will be through PM. Please return to your regularly scheduled posts
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biggernhell
Aug 8, 2002, 12:05 AM
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So roughster
Let me see if I've got this right. You can chop ill placed bolts only with the permission of those who placed them?
Does this include bolts next to cracks?
Bolts in obviously bad rock, that could be choped and a bolt placed in better rock?
Unsafe bolts?
What happens in the above situations when you can't readily find the original bolter?
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 12:42 AM
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Quote:So roughster
Let me see if I've got this right. You can chop ill placed bolts only with the permission of those who placed them?
Does this include bolts next to cracks?
Bolts in obviously bad rock, that could be choped and a bolt placed in better rock?
Unsafe bolts?
What happens in the above situations when you can't readily find the original bolter?
Actually my comment on whether or not he talked about the bolts before he chopped was based on his earlier argument that people should talk to the Chopper to understand their motives. My turnabout was to ask if he talked to the bolter before he chopped to understand the original bolters thoughts on the issue.
I never defended bolts chopped that are next to cracks, and the other two situations are not really bolt chopping but replacing or making the climb safer. I do think that you should talk to the FAist of any route before altering it any way.
Its funny you should bring up the situation of not being able to find the FAist. At an area I have been putting up routes, there is an older route (as in 5 years or so) who FAist is unknown. It would appear that rockfall took out a section of about 20 feet on this one particular route, as is evident by the obvious new rock scar, rock at the base, as well as the fact that the rest of the route is bolted every 6 feet or so and now there is a blank section of 20 feet with few holds and no bolts.
I have attempted for 3 seasons to find out who bolted it and have been unsuccessfull so far. If in the event it goes on for another year I may decide to rebolt it, but only after I consult with others who frequent the area and also I would consider this a last resort. I would never just make a change to a route based upon my assesment. i would at the very minimal try to consult others who frequent the area to get a consensus on how to approach the situation.
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chrisshaeffer
Aug 8, 2002, 12:43 AM
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Catholic? Protestant?
Oh wait...wrong bbs...
This has all the flavor of a "debate" that will never end because the two extremes have NO common ground on which to compromise.
Oh well.
-C
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 12:55 AM
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Chris:
I would actually say that most bolt/chopping situations could be avoided in the 1st place if choppers would approach bolters before they chopped. It may not fix the original route but it may lead to a better understanding of each others perspectives which would help avoid future confrontations.
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biggernhell
Aug 8, 2002, 12:57 AM
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Why did I ask?
I should know better than to post in a bolting/chopping thread.
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likethegoddess
Aug 8, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Roughster,
I'm a boulderer and I new one at that. I'm curious about people "holding projects". What does that mean?
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 1:08 AM
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Bouldering itself does not really lend itself to "personal projects". While a potential FAist may spend time cleaning the holds of lichen etc... there is generally no financial and large amounts of invested time.
However, in sport climbing, the FAist has the added finiancial cost of buying the hangers, bolts, and anchors. In addition, routes don't magically appear over night. In areas other than clean granite domes, new routes are an arduous task that usually involves hours of cleaning and rigging, bolting, and scrubbing, belaying, and many times risking life and limb to get the route up.
This process has an exacting toll on the FA ist. A good thing to try and understand this is grab a 5 lbs hammer and take it to the local chosspile. Find a large rock on the ground and pick it up. Place it somehwre next to an uncomfortable place to sit. Sit in that uncomfortable postion and proceed to hammer on the rock for about an hour staright. Then grab a wire brush and brush it for an hour. Now grab your tooth brush and brush it with that for an hour. Now pick up handfulls of dirt and rub it all over your clothes, face, hands, arms, legs, and even put some in your ears. During this whole process do not drink anywater and make sure your in the sun
Now after doing all the above, take the hammer, smash your fingers a few times with it for good measure to ensure multiple cuts on your hands to properly simulate scrapping your hands.
NOW finally rope up and try to send anything, let alone a line that you may be bolting for aproject. Heheh it is neigh impossible unless the route is well within your abaility.
Becuase of the involved effort, most people will allow a route developer a period of "grace" where they can come back over a period of time to try the route after resting up to get the FA. Now that period of time varies from area to area, but most common practice to allow the developer enough time as need to redpoint the climb and get the first ascent as a kind of thank you for spending the $$ and the time involved in establishing the route.
I would suggest asking a local route developer to help them on a new route for a insight into the extent of effort it takes to develop a route. Most people who take the routes for granted have no idea just how long, how much it costs, and how much work putting up a new route is.
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blacksamba
Aug 8, 2002, 1:28 AM
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Um how about the US GOVERNMENT!!
Charging peak fees (or as they call it a rescue fee) to climbers to climb on public property!
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wyclimber
Aug 8, 2002, 1:49 AM
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Roughster - I got a kick out of your description of simulating bolting a (chossy or maybe... limestone) route. I've been there all too many times. One thing you might consider, a tenant that I've been holding for years, is the nature of the 'First Ascent'. I have maintained for years now that if I spend the time, money, and effort to bolt the line, then I get to name it and the credit in the guide book, regardless of who actually redpoints the thing first. That way I can concentrate on bolting good lines, and not have to worry about some A-hole 'stealing my line', before I get a chance to climb it. Think about it, more time goes into bolting than may ever go into any ascent, especially if your talking about limestone.
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