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sul-pont
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Dec 12, 2005, 2:16 PM
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I've searched and then read quite a few posts on pull-ups, have the Horst and Goddard/Neumann books, and have done other research. Now, I have some questions for you training specialists from whom I have previously benefited from in this forum.
I am 34, 6'0, 160 lbs., have been climbing for about 1.5 years, have climbed routes up to 5.10d, and am working into 5.11 currently. After a torn labrum and several months off from climbing, I could not do one pull-up (last March), now I can do about 10 when fresh, and 3 sets of 7 with a 3-minute rest between sets, performed 3 days a week with at least one rest day between workouts. Sometimes I substitute Frenchies for the pull-ups and can do 3 sets of 2 cycles, three different lock-offs in each cycle, with 5-minute rest between sets. I'm a little bit frustrated because I want to improve my pull-up strength; I believe it is important to my progress as a climber, along with improved technique and greater core strength.
So, I'm looking for some variation in my workout. At my gym there is a Gravitron machine that will take some body weight off during pull-ups and I am wondering if I should work in some higher repetition pull-up workouts along with the regular pull-up workouts (and/or Frenchie workouts).
I have also read of pyramid workouts and am wondering if they, as well, might be a good idea in order to introduce further variation into my pull-up workout.
Thanks in advance for the advice.
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sandstonejunkie
Dec 12, 2005, 3:24 PM
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I am currently suffering a little from a torn labrum. (The diagnosis of my ortho doc..hopefully correct.) I'm interested in your injury, recovery if you'd like to post a little more about that experience I would appreciate it. My experience has simply been a reduced range of motion and doing my PT as prescribed. I have continued climbing just taking care not to further injure the shoulder.
With respect to training. I'm 34, 6'1", 190 lbs. I have been climbing for 15 years. I can redpoint in the lower 5.13 range. I do not believe that pull up power is a sole predictor of your future success/progression in climbing. Certainly it won't hurt but all that repetition can be detrimental to your previously injured shoulder. I have never been good at pullups, today I can probably crank out 10 but nothing more...and I cannot do multiple sets back to back with any hope of 7-10 each time.
I think most of my successes in climbing come from technique and experience. While I won't discourage you from training because it certainly can help, I would vary it more to give your shoulders a break. Instead of focusing on pull up power do some bouldering with lots of varied movements. Bouldering helped me with my power and core strength much more than pull ups ever did. I also feel core strength is better than pull up strength. When my core fails I'm done.
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sul-pont
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Dec 12, 2005, 3:52 PM
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Thanks for the info, Sandstone. I do boulder indoors quite often nowadays, usually 90-minute sessions 2-3 times a week. I'm pretty good at V2 and am getting into V3. I share your experience in increased ability on routes due to bouldering.
Sounds like your shoulder is doing well so keep cranking and stay strong! I'll start a new post about my labrum so this one doesn't drift.
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cchildre
Dec 12, 2005, 4:34 PM
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I started working pull ups a lot. It really helped with my conditioning and strength at first, which worked very well. When I needed an additional challenge, and in the interest of increasing my core strength. I started bringing my legs up into the ell position extended out horizontal to the ground. Still later, alternating sides between reps I would point my legs to the left and right alternately to really work all the core muscles. I have had great results. You and I are at about the same climbing level, age, and height, but I am 20 pounds heavier. Your shoulder injury might prevent you from this approach, but if you want to get stronger here is what I have learned. Strength training is best done doing the maximum amount of work as quickly as possible. For maximum results, from what I have read, for your first set of reps, you should barely be able to do 8. So you could put on a weight belt to increase resistance. After 8, rest for 30-60 seconds and repeat doing as many as you can muster....typically 5-7 and repeat a third time when you should be at 4-6. This will leave you blasted. You should always warm up before such a workout or more injury will result. At our age, I limit this workout to two times a week, and since I climb almost every weekend, I only do this on Wednesday, allowing for plenty of rest so the muscles can rebuild. This should be a very intense workout that leaves you reeling on Thursday but by Saturday and Sunday you should be fine.
If you move to the workout that lightens the load and allows you to increase your reps, you will develop more endurance than just raw strength. You might consider exactly what your trying to achieve here. A move that is too stong, say in the bouldering area, or a series of moves on a long sport route that will require more endurance. I have the strength of a mid 5.11 climber, but the endurance of a sloppy 5.10er. I can boulder on problems with ratings above my sport rating so endurance is my weak spot. I hope this might help you in some fashion, and remember that I am in no way an expert so please see this amature advice. Best of luck
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wyomingclimber
Dec 12, 2005, 6:54 PM
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Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but here goes:
I think you need to realistically assess what's holding back your climbing. Do you find that when you're holding a jug, you don't have enough strength to pull yourself to the next hold? Do you fall off routes because your lats burn out, but your forearms feel fine? If so, then maybe pull-ups are the answer.
I am fairly certain, though, that a person who can boulder V2, but can't get up .11a, has issues that won't respond to pull-ups. My wife climbs at about your grade and I serously doubt she could do a single pull-up.
This is an easy trap to fall into. There's a story about Wolfgang Gullich failing repeatedly on an easy redpoint (think it was .13b or something) despite training power like a dog. It wasn't until he realized that he had power to spare and that his weaknesses lay elsewhere that he was able to progress...
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cchildre
Dec 12, 2005, 8:34 PM
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Wyoming has made a point I failed to bring up in my response, in which I tried to limit my response to specifically what you asked about.
At this stage, I am trying to work more on footwork, and all around technique instead of earlier when I focused mostly on strength. Footwork is really where we will probably realize our greatest advances in climbing. As heard in a fine film "Return to Sender" - "all climbing is about footwork, the more weight you can put on your feet the less on your hands and arms". Others will surely follow with better more informative advice than I. I think Wyoming is right on with the suggestion that you self-analyze what is really limiting your climbing.
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pushsendnorcal
Dec 13, 2005, 3:59 AM
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100% Max Effort- 1 Rep
95-99% Sub-Maximum Effort- 2 Reps
90-94% Sustained Sub-Maximum Effort A- 3 Reps
85-89% Sustained Sub-Maximum Effort B- 4 Reps
80-84% Strength Training Level- 5 Reps
For strength purposes, stick to 3-5 reps, while increasing only the amount of weight your holding and the volume of sets.
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tnmountainman
Dec 13, 2005, 4:44 AM
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As a general rule of thumb in wieght training and exercise the more intensive and the more wieght you pump with less reps will build strength and muscle mass, lighter wieght and more reps will tone, shape and define muscles. Hope this helps with the original Q :D
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sul-pont
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Dec 13, 2005, 11:30 PM
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Thanks, all, for your thoughtful input.
[quote="wyomingclimber"]I am fairly certain, though, that a person who can boulder V2, but can't get up .11a, has issues that won't respond to pull-ups.
You are right: I am convinced that my greatest limitations are technical, not strength related. Thanks for the reminder.
I started getting serious about training pull-ups when I found myself sometimes falling not at the crux but rather at the end of routes when there was an easy pull-up move (sometimes just to get over the lip) that I couldn't get myself over. That problem has gone away since the pull-up training (and endurance training) so I will invest less time on pull-up training.
[quote="wyomingclimber"]There's a story about Wolfgang Gullich failing repeatedly on an easy redpoint (think it was .13b or something) despite training power like a dog. It wasn't until he realized that he had power to spare and that his weaknesses lay elsewhere that he was able to progress...
Well, OK, I feel a little better now!
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fluxus
Dec 15, 2005, 6:15 AM
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In reply to: Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but here goes:
Hey its a dirty job but someone's got to do it. You took one for the team this time, I'll catch the next one if you like.
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granite_grrl
Dec 15, 2005, 12:42 PM
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In reply to: so I will invest less time on pull-up training.
You said earlier that you climb 2-3 times a week, so there is your climbing specific training. If you are going to do additional training outside the climbing gym then I'd like to suggest concentrating on injury prevention exercises rather than something else along the lines of pull-up training.
I think that we all know that we should spend time balancing out our bodies, but I myself know how tempting it can be to run to the gym and work your back, core, etc instead. Rotator cuff exercises suck, I hate tricepts, and legs bore me, but I've had enough achy joints lately that I've been making a real effort to do this stuff on my climbing days off.
Cardio can also be important, esp with xmas here (along with all the goodies accociated with it) it'll halp keep the weight off.
After all that I may spend some time on my core or back, but I will admit that part of the reason for that is my desire to look next summer wearing a sports bra :lol:
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azrockclimber
Dec 15, 2005, 1:43 PM
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In reply to: I am currently suffering a little from a torn labrum. (The diagnosis of my ortho doc..hopefully correct.) I'm interested in your injury, recovery if you'd like to post a little more about that experience I would appreciate it. My experience has simply been a reduced range of motion and doing my PT as prescribed. I have continued climbing just taking care not to further injure the shoulder. With respect to training. I'm 34, 6'1", 190 lbs. I have been climbing for 15 years. I can redpoint in the lower 5.13 range. I do not believe that pull up power is a sole predictor of your future success/progression in climbing. Certainly it won't hurt but all that repetition can be detrimental to your previously injured shoulder. I have never been good at pullups, today I can probably crank out 10 but nothing more...and I cannot do multiple sets back to back with any hope of 7-10 each time. I think most of my successes in climbing come from technique and experience. While I won't discourage you from training because it certainly can help, I would vary it more to give your shoulders a break. Instead of focusing on pull up power do some bouldering with lots of varied movements. Bouldering helped me with my power and core strength much more than pull ups ever did. I also feel core strength is better than pull up strength. When my core fails I'm done.
thats amazing that you can redpoint 5.13 and only do 10 pullups. mad skills!!
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sul-pont
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Dec 15, 2005, 1:55 PM
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[quote="granite_grrl"]You said earlier that you climb 2-3 times a week, so there is your climbing specific training. If you are going to do additional training outside the climbing gym then I'd like to suggest concentrating on injury prevention exercises rather than something else along the lines of pull-up training.
Yes, I do. Because I tore by labrum, I do several PT exercises 3-4 times a week, after climbing (I head to the rock gym 3 times a week, 2 of those are usually bouldering sessions. I add one more day of PT on a rest day.). Two of those days I add shoulder presses, push-ups, reverse wrist curls, and chair dips. I train wrist pronation on every climbing day.
[quote="granite_grrl"]Cardio can also be important
I agree. I take a 30-minute easy run on my non-climbing days. Helps a lot with endurance (as well as long traverses and route laps on climbing days).
[quote="granite_grrl"]I will admit that part of the reason for that is my desire to look next summer wearing a sports bra :lol:
Yes, hopefully after a winter of core exercises and cardio training I will feel like enough of a good sport climber to take my shirt off at the crags....
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