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alakso
Dec 14, 2005, 11:02 PM
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I know someday I'll need plastic Mountaineering boots for the big Mountains. For right now I'm looking for a great pair of leather boots to use when I won't need plastic boots.
What does everyone recommend for great leather Mountaineering boots?
Are leather boots with a seperate liner recommended?
I take size 12 and have a D width and tend to have cold feet.
I've been looking at the La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTX.
Any brands/boots to stay away from due to being to narrow, not warm, or heavy-clumsy?
Woliwon (thanks in Penobscot)...alakso
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talons05
Dec 14, 2005, 11:10 PM
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I also have big, wide feet (13d) I would suggest going at least a half size LARGER in almost any mountaineering boot. Boots that are too tight decrease the circulation in your feet, as well as the insulating space around them. (Both contribute to frostbite rather quickly)
I have found that Solomon footwear tends to be very narrow, so definitly try any of those on before commiting. I have a pair of Asolos now and am very happy.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
A.W.
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aj_77
Dec 14, 2005, 11:37 PM
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I really like my Scarpa Freney XTs. Super comfortable, pretty light, climb rock decently (not great), but are excellent on snow and ice. Not leather, but they are synthetic. I think that Scarpa is now making them with Gore-tex, so they are even more waterproof, but their water resistance hasn't even been an issue for me. You could also check out the Freney Pro (more of a traditional leather boot).
A lot of people are big fans of the La Sportiva Makalu. But, the last didn't really fit my foot too well.
I have also heard that Garmont tends to run wide, but I have never worn any of their boots so I really can't confirm that.
Hope that gives you a starting point. If it's possible, I would suggest that you just go to a store and try on a bunch of different boots, even ones that supposedly run narrow, because lasts and boot fit really vary. And I would say that boot fit is probably more critical than the actual model of the boot.
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stovetop
Dec 15, 2005, 12:18 AM
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I agree that fit is more important than brand, model, etc. I can say that if the Nepal's fit well, you can't go wrong with them. I have the older extremes and love them. I am from Maine as well and they will have gotten me through 2 winters of climbing in the Whites and Maine with no complaints. Make sure you can try some on first, or find a on-line retailer that will allow for multiple exchanges (most will for boots). The latter method is extremely slow and time consuming, but worth it in the long run when you get the right fit.
Good luck with your search!
StoveTop
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pico23
Dec 15, 2005, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: I know someday I'll need plastic Mountaineering boots for the big Mountains. For right now I'm looking for a great pair of leather boots to use when I won't need plastic boots. What does everyone recommend for great leather Mountaineering boots? Are leather boots with a seperate liner recommended? I take size 12 and have a D width and tend to have cold feet. I've been looking at the La Sportiva Nepal Evo GTX. Any brands/boots to stay away from due to being to narrow, not warm, or heavy-clumsy? Woliwon (thanks in Penobscot)...alakso
If you have cold feet leather is probably not a good choice. IMO, if you only have one pair of boots plastic is better. Leather isn't all that much more comfortable (once you find and customize the right plastic), it usually weighs more, it's not suitable for overnight use, it gets wet, it freezes, the insulation wets out from inside without a VB liner.
There are advantages to leather but they are overshadowed if you only have a single boot.
BTW, how many double leathers are still made? Most leathers are integral insulation now.
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pico23
Dec 15, 2005, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: A lot of people are big fans of the La Sportiva Makalu. But, the last didn't really fit my foot too well.
The older Makalu had a weird last. Narrowish (good for me) but the last was weird overall. Took me about 30 days of (hard) use to break them in. Meanwhile my feet took a beating. Fit sort of like a glove now with some modifications to the footbeds and adding some padding to the tongue to push my foot back.
There is no way the makalu will be warm enough for winter.The makalu is a boot that is too warm in summer and too cold in winter but it can be useful in both seasons as a sort of compromise all purpose boot. I use them mostly in the spring and early winter for general mountaineering. You need to be moving with them. Definitely not for belayed winter climbing. However, there is a winter makalu called the Karakoram (i believe) which is built on the same last but higher ankle and insulated. They used to be redish in color.
I never got the older Freney (the blue boot) but it was pretty sweet. Looked for it for a year and then gave up, it was a hard boot to find. It fit my narrow foot like a glove and seemed pretty nimble.
The Asolo Norths were a great boot but definitely too wide. I think Asolo makes there plastics narrow (I own a pair of ottomillas that fit great) but there leathers tend to be med-wide. My foot swam in the Norths despite tons of modifications. If that fit is that far off from the start you'll never make it fit.
I ended up with a womens issue Montrail Verglas after years of looking for insulated leathers that fit (i went through like 5 pairs of boots). Toe box was a bit tight just behind the toes but I had them professionally stretched and the fit is perfect now with the narrow heal and arch. My foot feels like the boot is made for it. I haven't climbed ice in them yet and I hope they are stiff enough but doing some technical hiking they were very nice. Best $99 I ever spent if they can climb ice under this hoss's weight. If not they'll make a great general mountaineering boot.
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iceisnice
Dec 15, 2005, 3:03 AM
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fuck it. they all work. its just boots ya'll.
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pico23
Dec 15, 2005, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: f--- it. they all work. its just boots ya'll.
you must have those feet that fit every boot just right and never get warm or cold. sweet jesus you are a god of sorts.
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iceisnice
Dec 15, 2005, 4:41 AM
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oh brother.....ok, here is the boot buying process....
1)go to store
2)got to boot/shoe dept
3)find the color you like
4)find a size that fits
5)buy boot
6)climb
7)deal with it
pretty simple. same formula climbers have been using for decades. :D
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talons05
Dec 15, 2005, 5:03 AM
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Yes, that's a great formula for frostbite.
If you're serious about mountaineering (which is different from "ice-cragging" and has more serious consequences), then fit is very important.
I think that's pretty bogus advice to be giving a newbie.
Cheers,
A.W.
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iceisnice
Dec 15, 2005, 4:08 PM
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strange, i think i mentioned "ones that fit". serious about montaineering? funny stuff there...... :wink:
stop being a bunch of wusses. climbers have delt with much worse stuff than what we have and they didn't cry about it.
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alakso
Dec 15, 2005, 4:36 PM
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When I was in the US Marines I dealt with wet and cold feet all the time so I know the importance of great boots. They're my feet so it does matter to me that MY boots fit great, do the job they're intended to do, and are warm enough to prevent frostbite. Hey, I'm as tough as they come, but that doesn't mean I don't want comfort in my boots to help me enjoy my adventures to high places. I appreciate everyone thoughts! alakso
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overlord
Dec 15, 2005, 4:41 PM
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get the one that fits. though plastic boots can be somewhat moulded to your foot by using a blowdryer to soften the plastic and the deform it, i would still reccomend starting off with a well-fitting boot.
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lubby
Dec 15, 2005, 8:21 PM
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Just like anything else that has way too many options (rock shoes, carabiners, shells) you will find as many opinions as, well you know.
As advised, go to the store (someplace with good selection) and try on everything they have. They should be able to help you figure out what is best. There are alternatives to leather... mine are a brand-propriatory kevlar-like material. Not as light as leather, but bombproof, and much lighter than plastic. They are set up for hybrid crampons, which is another consideration. I would get full step in system if I were doing ice, but for general alpine I would at least get something set up for hybrid crampons.
You can find some killer deals online, but then you usually cant try things on. So either try that or done.
Your store should be able to help you with fit, but just try them on with nice warm thick socks (some where 2 pairs). You dont want to move around much in them or you will get blisters... same for not enough room. Fit is fit, and it either does or doesnt... or it can be adjusted with aftermarket insoles. After trying on a few pairs you will start to know what matters for your feet. And dont get hung up on a few extra bucks for something you want. These boots should last years. Not saying spend $400 when a $100 boot (like mine were on sale) will work... do the research and buy the right boot for you.
Good luck
J
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pico23
Dec 15, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: Just like anything else that has way too many options (rock shoes, carabiners, shells) you will find as many opinions as, well you know. There are alternatives to leather... mine are a brand-propriatory kevlar-like material. Not as light as leather, but bombproof, and much lighter than plastic. Good luck J
I don't think there are enough boot options. Most boots are built on a similar last per brand. So really only the brand that fits do you have an option of. That narrows you down to perhaps a few pairs of boots from perhaps 50 models to start.
In terms of weight i'd be curious to find boots lighter and warmer than the Asolo Ottomilla with intuition liners mine weight in at under 4.5lbs (per pair) for a mens size 10.
In comparison (all size 8-9 boots):
La Sportiva Nepal Extreme EVO GTX 4.6lbs
Koflach Degre 5.7lbs
La Sportiva Nuptse (double leather) 6lbs
Scarpa Omega (size 8) 4.25lbs
Vasque Ice 9000 (double leather) 5.5lbs
La Sportiva K4s 4.1lbs
Scarpa Inverno (standard liner) 5.7lbs
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kobaz
Dec 15, 2005, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: In comparison (all size 8-9 boots): Koflach Degre 5.7lbs
Degre is actually 5.4lbs for size 9, I have a pair and I love em.
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johngenx
Dec 16, 2005, 4:58 AM
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I have very wide feet (8EE/EEE) and have found that Salomon boots are one of the few brands that routinely fit me, with a wide, high-volume fit. Since they don't make a plastic double, I have the Pro Thermics.
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andrewbanandrew
Dec 22, 2005, 6:09 PM
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How much heel lift can be expected? I've tried on 7 pairs of boots now and the only pair of boots I have found that has very little heel lift when standing on my toes to mimic frontpointing had to be cinched down quite a bit at the foot/ankle crook.
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johngenx
Dec 22, 2005, 7:19 PM
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What are you doing with them? If you're doing glacier travel and moderate ice/snow, some lift is fine (not a ton) but if you're getting onto steep stuff, then you want your heel to be pretty stable. I've found that with my foot shape, I have trouble getting a boot to fit where I can get my heel locked down reasonably well and not have the boots so durned tight that I get cold from lack of circulation. You might have to experiment with different footbeds and sock combos in different boots.
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rocknap
Dec 22, 2005, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In comparison (all size 8-9 boots): Koflach Degre 5.7lbs Degre is actually 5.4lbs for size 9, I have a pair and I love em.
Ditto on the Degre's.
Size 12.5 =~ 6lbs 5oz (stock liners, big comfy insoles).
They are a half size bigger than I normally wear, but the insoles take up some of that space. They are SUPER warm and I've used them for miles of dry trail (okay), cramponing up couloirs (great), and toproping vertical ice (okay).
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petsfed
Dec 22, 2005, 7:42 PM
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La Sportiva always seemed to fit narrower feet, but you've got 3 different lasts to play with (in order of ice climbing agressiveness): the Trango, the Nepal and the Makalu lasts. The double boot Nuptse uses a modified Makalu last. If memory serves, the Nepal Extreme has one of the most customizable fits of any leather boot available. That's why its so damned popular. That's just one companies selection.
Having said all that, if you're just starting, a plastic boot is the most worthwhile decision as its so much more versatile than any dedicated climbing boot. If you find out ice isn't for you, you've still got a great cold weather camping and snowshoeing boot. It can double as a light ski-touring boot (you just have to get the right bindings), and its still there for big range, low technical difficulty mountaineering. And go to as many stores with as many different brands as possible and let your feet, not your pocketbook or your sense of style, decide for you.
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pico23
Dec 22, 2005, 11:52 PM
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In reply to: La Sportiva always seemed to fit narrower feet, but you've got 3 different lasts to play with (in order of ice climbing agressiveness): the Trango, the Nepal and the Makalu lasts. The double boot Nuptse uses a modified Makalu last. If memory serves, the Nepal Extreme has one of the most customizable fits of any leather boot available. That's why its so damned popular. That's just one companies selection. Having said all that, if you're just starting, a plastic boot is the most worthwhile decision as its so much more versatile than any dedicated climbing boot. If you find out ice isn't for you, you've still got a great cold weather camping and snowshoeing boot. It can double as a light ski-touring boot (you just have to get the right bindings), and its still there for big range, low technical difficulty mountaineering. And go to as many stores with as many different brands as possible and let your feet, not your pocketbook or your sense of style, decide for you.
This and Talons post sums it up pretty well. A plastic will take you (just about) anyplace a leather will but not the other way around.
One boot for a variety of things, plastic. Oneboot for a specific task, whatever the best boot that fits is.
Something to add is that plastic boots will fit better with a thermo liner (they are also warmer and lighter by as much as 1-2 pounds). This will not make a poorly fitting boot perfect but it will make a slightly off fit pretty good to perfect. And you can have a professional Pedorthist fit your plastics (or probably leathers for that matter) with custom footbeds, and foam, and do some stretching. All this, thermo liners, custom footbeds, and stretching will cost you anywhere from $300-400 on top of a $300-400 boot.
If thats steep (and it is) all but the stretching can be done to a lesser extent on your own. Before I got thermo liners I customized the hell out of my plastics to the point where I had no heal lift (now I do with the thermo liners but it's minimal and the overall fit is good enough not to mess with them).
And one final thing. Many brands plastic models don't differ all that much. I think the main difference is the stock liners. My wife has the Asolo AFS 101 which is a total entry level plastic boot. Looking at it vs. my Ottomilas (expedition model) there isn't a whole lot different. Mine are more rigid in the sole and possibly a bit lighter (accounting for size) but hers are more than capable of vertical ice while giving JUST a bit more flex in the upper. Her stock liner was heavier than my Ottomilla liner and probably not as warm. I think on the right feet both boots would probably get you to the same place if you just switched to better liners on the 101. If I remember correctly the difference between the Degre and the vertical wasn't a whole lot either, i think primarily the liner again.
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