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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2006, 8:41 AM
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WOW, Flamer. I am really close to my fighting weight. And you live close to me. I got some ideas. Some crazy ones and some doable ones.
Or, it looks like you already have some ideas.
Yep, Ammons way is more dynamic too because you just put the rope into the play a little bit more.
"crazy" Chris.
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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2006, 8:53 AM
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Ricardo said:
"my guess is that to do el cap in a push i should be able to climb about 30 hours in a row .. in 2005 me and chris white did 15 hours on wet denim day dream, and we were pretty whooped when we topped out .. so i've got a long ways to go."
Actually, we started the climb at sunraise (a little later) had to do the walk out to the start of the climb. We got 70 feet from the top 20 minutes before sunset. (We didn't care to bring a watch) So, Don't be so hard on yourself, Ricardo. We KICKED ASS!
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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2006, 9:15 AM
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Man, I gotta go to bed. 5.00am comes early.
Flamer,
Simul freeclimbing yes.....but simul Aid??? Would it really be faster? We had no change over except at Awahanee ledge and the last pitch of WDDD.
Ricardo took us to Awahanne ledge. I took us to the last pitch of WDDD. Ricardo lead one of the most bitchin roofs in the Valley to the top. Yes, I could of backcleaned more and ran it out more (Wish we brought more nuts, I love nutting) . But, Why? the Goal was to make it to the top before dark not break the sound barrior (like we where doing that). I like the statement "Going slow really Fast" .
Ricardo, Don't get sandbagged. Train a little and go kick some butt!!!
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ricardol
Jan 2, 2006, 5:50 PM
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hell yeah .. i know what you mean .. that was my first time on a wall with a partner -- the leader is the captn of the ship .. tag when told to tag .. :-) ..
.. for sure chris -- i'd go up a wall with you anytime.
-- ricardo
In reply to: DUDE!!! Ricardo, I have learned so much from Ammon and Brain McCray and even Pass the Piton's Pete even thou i hate to admit it. heheHEHE. Just by reading there trip reports and already knowing the basics VERY WELL. Ammon is so right. How did you get so good sooo fast? Took me way longer. You should start running. Seriously, That's what i am doinng right now. Gravity will like you better. But take it really slow at first, otherwise you will get hurt. 1/2 mile a day for one month is not to little. Before you know it you will be flying with the wind. Two more things. The person on lead is Capitan of The Ship, always. No, You are not always capitan of the ship like when you are Soloing. Last thing. You got a In a Push Partner already. Cheers. |
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ammon
Jan 2, 2006, 6:03 PM
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Nice!! Yep, that's what I was talking about. I've experimented with a few different combinations with the clove-clove and never felt very comfortable with it (while short-fixing).
I think it was Iron Hawk that I fell and yarded Cedar around as he was cleaning. That's when I changed the way I short-fixed. I’ve been using the double figure-eight (bunny/dog ears, whatever you wanna call it) for years on trad route’s and while camping on the wall but never thought to use it while short-fixing. The screamer was an after thought while leaving the belay a few times…… which turned into habit.
Hhhmm, better jugging?
I would have to say the best thing you can do is to be smooth and get in a rhythm. Know when to change techniques as the angle of the rock changes. I pass the gear with my upper ascender a lot, especially when it’s steep or the gear is far apart, but don’t let your bottom ascender get sucked into the biner as your weight shifts.
You should be able to take both ascenders on and off the rope quickly using the same hand. Another important thing to learn is timing and knowing when to rest your weight on your daisy and when to use brutal strength.
What else? While cleaning I rack all my gear on two separate slings, all the gear on one side and biners and draws on the other. When the leader is tagging he/she can ask for biners, gear or both. Take those few extra seconds and re-rack the nuts, pins, hangers, etc., on a spare biner. This saves time in the long run because the leader won’t have to deal with a cluster on lead.
Most importantly, relax and think the situation through. Oh…. And have fun.
Cheers and Happy New Year!!!
Ammon
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flamer
Jan 2, 2006, 6:50 PM
Post #32 of 61
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In reply to: Simul freeclimbing yes.....but simul Aid???
I'm not saying do it always....but there are certain situation's that it works well. The first 4 to ahwahnee is a perfect example. I was climbing with a partner I'd never climbed with before.....we made ahwahnee in just under 2 hours-that was both of us to the ledge....no speed record but still pretty fast. I never tagged gear and All we had was a double set.
Really it's just another tool for the box....use it when it will work best....
I'm always looking for partners.....we should get out.
josh
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climbhigher
Jan 3, 2006, 12:31 AM
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Who learns how to climb by soloing "Big walls"!!!. Your one sick pup!
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lambone
Jan 3, 2006, 12:38 AM
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simo-aiding...is an interesting concept.
I can see it being very usefull and practical on loooong bolt ladders, but could say I'd use it in any other application.
arguably maybe safer then Simo-freeclimbing...?
I can see how it'd work good at the bottom of LT if each climber was about the same speed.
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ricardol
Jan 3, 2006, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: simo-aiding...is an interesting concept. I can see it being very usefull and practical on loooong bolt ladders, but could say I'd use it in any other application. arguably maybe safer then Simo-freeclimbing...? I can see how it'd work good at the bottom of LT if each climber was about the same speed.
you'd both have to be pretty fast to get benefits from simulaiding on those bolt ladders .. me and chris hit awahnee in abou 4 hours i think .. (i led that block) .. and chris always reacehd the belay well before i was out of sight on the next pitch (we short fixed at every pitch) .. (that is 4 short fixes to awahnee) ..
worked well for us ..
.. we used the following method:
butterfly the first bolt -- then clove the 2nd bolt -- then place a screamer on the first piece off the belay ... seemed bomber enough -- but ammon did show me the bunny ear method last year .. sounds better to me.
though i need to learn how to tie it..
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ammon
Jan 3, 2006, 3:37 AM
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http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/BunnyEars.htm
I've played around with the idea of simul-aiding, just so happens at the same location as Josh is talking about (WFLT). I've always come up with the same conclusion; the cleaner usually gets worked enough on the easy terrain, better to let him/her/me rest for those few extra minutes.
It does have it's place but once you get going, short-fixing is kinda like simul-aiding because both climbers are ascending.
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bighigaz
Jan 3, 2006, 5:47 AM
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Dude... Red Bull...
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areuinclimber
Jan 3, 2006, 6:00 AM
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hey guys,
reading your posts, i am wondering what you guys use for a tag line? a 5mmx 60m?
also what about getting the line back to the belay after the gear is tagged?
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ricardol
Jan 3, 2006, 7:32 AM
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me and chris tagged with a 9.2mm line .. since it could be used as a backup lead line if something happened to the lead line -- and we both felt fine rapping it later..
(i would have felt fine taggign an 8mm 1/2 rope, which in a pinch could also be used as a single lead line -- (if you REALLY had to .. like in an emergency))
.. yout dont have to worry about getting it back to the belay after tagging since its always attached to both climbers .. -- if you need to tag when you are over 100' from your belayer, then you can just leave the line attached to a piece on the wall, and your cleaner will get it later..
.. more experienced folks though will have more tricks about tagging + tag lines than me...
In reply to: hey guys, reading your posts, i am wondering what you guys use for a tag line? a 5mmx 60m? also what about getting the line back to the belay after the gear is tagged? |
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lambone
Jan 3, 2006, 7:44 AM
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did you haul or jug with a pack? if pck, how was it? thx
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ricardol
Jan 3, 2006, 4:24 PM
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we wore a VERY small pack ..
in it we carried:
2 light windbreakers
water (we had 2 quarts each)
1 bagel
1 sausage
2 hats
In reply to: did you haul or jug with a pack? if pck, how was it? thx |
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areuinclimber
Jan 3, 2006, 4:44 PM
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just to add something to the thread.....
this is for speed soloing.
if you carry your lead rope in a pack on your back and feed it thru a modified gri-gri (not the death mod) it really reduces the CF. also on straight up pitches you can (with a light enough pig of course) tie in to the haul line (already rigged to haul) and rap/clean the lead line and just jug back up and keep climbing. i also saw that making every pitch a rope stretcher is faster as well. this would only work well for c1/2 routes though.
i learned all this while on the nose. we were climbing at a mellow pace and met up with a dude named brian beiga. he was super fast and had it not been for us would have made it to el cap tower in one day. so i credit all those tricks to him...thanks dude.
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flamer
Jan 3, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: did you haul or jug with a pack? if pck, how was it? thx
I usually carry a small camelbak, I put a clif(or whatever) bar and a couple of packs of GU in it. I drink gatorade instead of water as I'm a salt sweater, and just water doesn't do it for me. I tie a light jacket to the outside.
I generally expect my partner to carry whatever water/food/clothing they want.
However this has been for grade IV and V routes.....like WFLT, Moonlight, Spaceshot, South face column, Skull queen etc. Some of these I carried even less.....
On a bigger route I'd have to reevaluate....it's all situational.
As far as tagging goes I either don't or I use an 8.8mm dynamic.
josh
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ammon
Jan 3, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: .. yout dont have to worry about getting it back to the belay after tagging since its always attached to both climbers .. -- if you need to tag when you are over 100' from your belayer, then you can just leave the line attached to a piece on the wall, and your cleaner will get it later..
I'm not sure what you mean here. You attach the ends of your tag line to both climbers? Why? That last part seems like a bad idea. If you're short-fixing you could easily climb a hundred feet and be stuck there, before your cleaner could get up and realease the tag line.
I use a 5mm 100 foot tag line. When the cleaner gets to the belay tag up everything he/she has and that’s it. You only get/have to tag once and the cleaner doesn’t get the line back. At the next belay, clip your tag line into one of the biners or pull up the end and clip it to the belay.
If you need double ropes for the descent, I use an 8mm 60m rope for tagging. Then you can use it for rapping as well.
If you’re going to haul, combine the two methods. Use the 8mm to haul with, tie it in short using a clove-hitch or butterfly and then use the extra rope to lower-out with.
I actually use this system most of the time on El Cap ascents. Mainly because I’m climbing something obscure, I have no idea what I’m going to encounter up there and want to be as prepared as possible. I also like the idea of being able to tag while I’m at the belay, if I need to.
I’ve heard tons of comments about how people are amazed that we can go fast and haul at the same time. BUT, in my opinion, if you’re a strong solo-aider, then those extra few minutes that the second is hauling the bag, doesn’t really slow you down as much as you would think.
So, for those extra three or four minutes your partner is hauling instead of belaying you, I don’t think it’s a big deal. The trick is to figure out what system is right for you, taking in account your abilities, the difficulties of the route and the length of the route.
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climbhigher
Jan 4, 2006, 1:40 AM
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100 feet and get stuck. We where not even close to being that fast. More like 50 feet max for us. Makes sense to me Ammon. Sounds like we where taging way to much.
What do you think of the idea of having two gri's for each climber and they never leave the rope just keep throttleing the rope from both ends back a forth as needed? The rope gets pretty kinked after awhile.
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flamer
Jan 4, 2006, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: The trick is to figure out what system is right for you, taking in account your abilities, the difficulties of the route and the length of the route.
Nail...head...brilliant.
josh
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ammon
Jan 4, 2006, 5:36 AM
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In reply to: What do you think of the idea of having two gri's for each climber and they never leave the rope just keep throttleing the rope from both ends back a forth as needed? The rope gets pretty kinked after awhile.
I always have two Gri's because I use it while leading off the belay. Running the rope between the two is a great way to keep the leader safe on sketchy terrain, while putting them on belay.
Not sure what you mean about never leaving the rope. Ideally, I tie into an end and don't untie that end until the summit.
Cheers mate, good to hear from you.
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climbhigher
Jan 4, 2006, 3:14 PM
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I Only ontie at the end from the leadline when it gets super kinked up. Of course, i pull some rope up and figure eight in to a locker first.
Just to throw one more thing out there...."IN A PUSH" climbing doesn't nessary mean speed climbing. If you start from the bottom of the wall, and go to the top with out ever touching the bottom of the wall while doing so, that would be a push. Like Sarah Jensen and I did a 7 day push on the NOSE. By using the ledges. We also had a portaledge just in case the ledges where already being used.
I like that idea of "In a push" speed climbing where you bring super light bivy gear and hit the ledges and bivy before dark. For example: On Mescalito, you would speed climb to the sweet ledge just before the Bismark. Next day go to the top. Or. On Wet Denim day Dream. Climb to Awahanee ledge, next day go to the top. Seems like every route has one ledge somewhere?
I kind of started getting this idea, after someone (me) dropped the ledge on TT. When this happend, Holly and I where on top of pitch 6 deceding if we should go down or not. We looked at the topo and was like wow there's two ledges on this route one on top of pitch 7 and one on top of pitch 9. We got or logistics figured out and went for it. The second day when we got to the last ledge on the route (pitch 9) we fixed three more pitchs above that. Came down bivyied on the ledge and the 3rd day we blasted to the top. We didn't do this route in a Push because I already had 3 pitches fixed when we started the route.
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flamer
Jan 4, 2006, 5:36 PM
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Chris,
You're kind'a splitting splitting hairs on your defnition of "In a Push"
There a difference between not fixing ropes and doing a route in traditional style....but there is also a difference between that and doing it in a push.....namely biving.
You can't Bivy and call it a push.....
josh
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