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healyje
Jan 4, 2006, 6:59 AM
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Given no one has been hurt there isn't a need for any type of lawsuit - but, if this simply never get's addressed then all bets are going to be off. This latest cam was made in 8/05 which means between this one and previous problem cams there are likely many suspect cams out in stores and on peoples' racks - this needs to get addressed. They also need to individually test them before letting them out the door starting today.
Good advice to back them up when using them for now. If I had any made in the past year or two that I hadn't fallen on I'd also be inclined to go out and setup somewhere to bounce test them all...
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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2006, 7:40 AM
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In reply to: Ed Leeper takes out full page (or damn close to it) ads about bolt hangers he produced in the late 70's. I bet his hangers cost 1/50th of what an Alien cost. I just think if CCH is aware of a problem, then they should address it as such. Right????
This sums up the deal nicely.
I saw someone's new aliens in August, they looked cheap and poorly made. I hope that person (and you know who you are) will at a minimum carefully inspect those cams.
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tradgal
Jan 4, 2006, 2:24 PM
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I think I am playing the devil's advocate as well. It's not that I don't think it's possible for manufacturing errors to have occurred with CCH products, it's just that I am trying to see it from all different standpoints and letting CCH at least respond (which should be as soon as possible).
Re: Sixleg.. comments...
I NEVER said I had any mechanical knowledge. In fact, I was asking questions to try and undertsand what happenned better. Reread my posts...on many occasions, I wrote I wasn't sure about those particular items I asked about.
As for RC.com being a "reputable climbing media." Absolutely not--I do NOT think that's true. Are their many reputable climbers in here who give reputable accounts of climbing related news--YES, NO DOUBT. But, by far, I would not consider the mass of rc.com to be a reputable climbing media.
What I want to see done--to clear CCH or prove them to be in the wrong--is for an outside source to test the cams in question for strength and possible manufacturing errors not all ready brought to attention. We can speculate all we want, but until there is some definitive answer from an expert in manufacturing or condusive tests to prove some error on CCH's part--than I will continue to be skeptical...
Also, and others may shed some light, looking at the male part of the two piece cam that I said looked like an awefully clean break...wouldn't there be some type of broken soder, just something rough where the pieces came apart? I don't see any soder on either part in the picture. Again, that's a question i don't know the answer to which makes me question this whole thing. It seems to me, and I am not an expert (thought I would be clearer for some), that if that bonding failed, soder would be visible on that male part after the fact...or the female for that matter...
RE: Blue alien...I looked at mine as well and there is one side of the cam where there is a noticeably larger "gap" compared to the other spring location. Yours almost looks like when you pull the trigger it is getting "caught up" and not returning to it's original location??? Not sure though...
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landgolier
Jan 4, 2006, 3:27 PM
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I may have just gotten trolled (references to aliens for birthday, not knowing the right size names, and REI are all suspect), but dude, that's totally normal, you just need to lube it. The lobes, spring, and middle piece that joins to the stem are all free-floating on the axle, yours has just slid to one side. You notice this more on blues and blacks because the springs are not internal to the lobes like on the bigger sizes, so there has to be more free space on the axle for the springs. Swishy swishy lubey lubey and you will be all set.
In reply to: This is not quite the same problem, but after reading this thread, i went to go check my own Aliens (purple through gray) which I was given for my birthday March 2005. Most of them checked out except for the blue one, which appears to have been manufactured somewhat incorrectly I have pictures of it at http://photobucket.com/...ide/Sketchy%20Alien/ There is an unusually large gap between the lobes on the right and because of this (maybe??) The spring on that side is not working correctly, as in it doesnt snap all the way open when you release the trigger. I don't think it has always been this way and possibly the large gap between the lobes has caused this. The lobes on all the rest of my aliens are much closer together than this and they are all still very snappy when you release the trigger. Seems like when I return this to REI, it might be best to bide my time and buy one of the new C3's when they come out instead of getting another alien... |
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insainio
Jan 4, 2006, 4:08 PM
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Just wanted to keep you all informed. So far no one from CCH has e-mailed me back or called.
I'll let you know when they do.
Thanks for all the comments,
Kevin
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happiegrrrl
Jan 4, 2006, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: Everyone take a deep breath and calm down... Jeez.... Like a bunch of pansies..... We now know there might be a problem with some recent Aliens. Climbing is dangerous. Remember? The gear might pull, the rock might break, the biner might unclip or break itself. And sometimes, yes, the gear itself fails. People die and stuff. Take up chess if you don't like it. Grow up. Talking of lawsuits is absurd and would result in all of us paying $500.00 for each 2 pound steel cam. So let's stop that bullsh1t right now. Now that ample evidence has been provided of a head ripping off with pics to boot, give CCH a few days to respond. Until then at least put your Orange Aliens on a shelf and back up other aliens with other gear. If you're betting your @ss on one piece of gear, whatever the brand, then that's the choice you make and you live or die with that decision. If CCH does not respond in a week or so with an action plan(recalls, inspection, etc) then the market and word of mouth will quickly determine CCH's fate. It won't take long these days... -Fear
Here, here!
And yes, Dirt. I have, as I said in the response to your PM, checked my aliens both times I read about these problems. The first time, I understood what to look for and found no problems, but this time I don't have the ability to understand how to analyze the situation. I will wait to see how CCH responds, but am fully confident in the ones that I own and I will continue to lead on them.
If, after a reasonable timeframe, it turns out that the folks at CCH become overwhelmed by this issue and cannot provide information satisfactory to the general climbing community(It is possible. They are human beings and the company is small. The world ain't perfect and this isn't McDonald's.), perhaps some people who are qualified to make assessments can provide some direction as to what we can look for to make more educated analysis of the gear we have in hand. As a public service, sort of the way we analyze accidents to help each other out.
Until then, my support is for the humans behind CCH in this time. This is the sort of thing that any business owner dreads.
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.
On a light note - I have a climbing partner who inspired me to create an "I'm In Love with An Alien" tee shirt. It's still in the design phase, and I'm hand painting it, just for my own wear and one other hand-painted for the partner.
She has a set of Red/Blue/yellow/Green and whenever she leads, she has me hand over at least the Blue and Green from my rack. Then she bought a dupe Blue - and STILL she took MY Blue guy on a lead!
Anyway, one day she is leading this pitch and she goes into aoutopilot and snags the Blue off her harness to place him. She hesitates..... I say 'What's up?" And she actually whines (well okay, I exaggerate....) "I don't want to waste him!"
I almost peed myself laughing. I told her she was an Alien Horde(r) and obsessed. After, of course, mentioning in polite, supportive belayer style, that the gear is meant to be placed.
And then I said "I'm gonna make you a shirt that has a drawing on the Green guy and says "I'm In Love...." Anyway, I am going to get back to work on the thing today.
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iceisnice
Jan 4, 2006, 4:30 PM
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i have one question, and i'm sorry if its been asked already (7 pages is way too much to read through for my attention span)......did the cam walk when you moved past it or when you were grabbing rope for the next clip? its very common for cams to walk in indian creek cracks. if the cam rotates upside down when you were pulling rope, and then you fell, it would create dangerous tourquing forces on the cam. just a thought before everyone burns the company on this one incident. don't get me wrong, its possible for a manufacturing defect to arise. cams are produced on such a large scale now it competely possible for one in thousands to fail. NOBODY can expect perfection. if you do you're an idiot and i'll start expecting perfection from you. this is the risk we have to accept in this activety. yes, we need to be vigilant and expect the best out of manufacturers, but we need to realize there are limitations.
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sevrdhed
Jan 4, 2006, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: Why do you have perfectly timed pictures of you falling? Most falling photos are taken by chance or dumb luck, unless the climber is falling on purpose, yet you have perfectly timed before and after photos.
Just wanted to add my thoughts on this, although it's kinda already dead. I've got 6 perfectly timed pictures of someone we were climbing with decking in the creek. If there's someone actively taking pictures, and they know what they're doing, then if you fall, they'll probably get a couple good shots of it.
At least, in my opinion they will :D
Steve
P.S. No, I'm not posting the photos. Sorry.
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insainio
Jan 4, 2006, 4:40 PM
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In reply to: i have one question, and I'm sorry if its been asked already (7 pages is way too much to read through for my attention span)......did the cam walk when you moved past it or when you were grabbing rope for the next clip? its very common for cams to walk in indian creek cracks. if the cam rotates upside down when you were pulling rope, and then you fell, it would create dangerous tourquing forces on the cam. just a thought before everyone burns the company on this one incident. don't get me wrong, its possible for a manufacturing defect to arise. cams are produced on such a large scale now it competely possible for one in thousands to fail. NOBODY can expect perfection. if you do you're an idiot and i'll start expecting perfection from you. this is the risk we have to accept in this activety. yes, we need to be vigilant and expect the best out of manufacturers, but we need to realize there are limitations.
I don't believe it walked, but to be honest I don't know. It all happened to quickly. It is a possibility and we will never know if it did or did not.
And yes, I agree with you that I may have got the one in a thousand that failed. I hope that is the case so that this doesn't happen to someone else.
Kevin
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elvislegs
Jan 4, 2006, 4:44 PM
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i think there's something that has sort of been overlooked in this thread because of the alien fuss: doubling up before a crux.
big props to insaino for backing up that piece. pure genius mate, and i'll be bearing it in mind the next time i'm on difficult ground and not far off the deck. things like this are great reminders to those who will listen, to practice redundancy and wisdom when protecting routes. so thanks for the reminder.
also, that .75 camalot should probably be bronzed and put on your mantle in homage.
just a thought.
-sean
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bobruef
Jan 4, 2006, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: if the cam rotates upside down when you were pulling rope, and then you fell, it would create dangerous tourquing forces on the cam. just a thought before everyone burns the company on this one incident. don't get me wrong, its possible for a manufacturing defect to arise. cams are produced on such a large scale now it competely possible for one in thousands to fail. NOBODY can expect perfection. if you do you're an idiot and i'll start expecting perfection from you.
Please excuse my ignorance of the creek (never climbed there... yet), but if cams are prone to walk there, and more prone to swiveling, how could a substantial force be put onto an inverted cam before it swivels to right itself. I just cannot wrap my brain around the idea of a cam maintaining an upward orientation throughout the entire time downward force is applied. I think if swiveled up, it would swivel back down. I will concede that the situation you propose is possible, albeit highly unlikely.
As for manufacturing defects of 1 in 1000 being possible, or acceptable, I will beg to differ. No company, with the exception of McDonald's, could get away with such a failure rate. We buy protection because we plan on putting ourselves in situations where a fall on said piece is likely enough. This is why we hold the manufacturers to such a high standard.
Also, this is not the first case of this particular mode of failure, follow the link in one of the first few pages of the thread.
as climbers, we should try whenever possible to keep more than one piece of pro between us and trouble. But this is idyllic, and not always possible, not to mention, no excuse on a company's part for the failure of their product.
Yes, this thread has the appearance of a mob-scene, and for due reason. This is not the first documented case of alien failure within the past year. Of course CCH should have the benefit of the doubt... the first time... or maybe the second time they slip. But we are not a criminal court, we are consumers, and many of us are losing trust in the company. The first few times angry mobs tried to surface over issues with these cams, they were quelled by the mobs of devout CCH supporters. Their cult following is what helped maintain their reputation before, but may not be of much help if we here of more incidents like this one.
Another thing to consider (and please somebody tell me if this estimate is out of line): How many times have you fallen on a particular cam. How many pieces will you own that will experience more than a dozen falls How many aliens on the market never see a fall? My point is, many trad climbers try very hard not to fall on gear, especially small gear like aliens. We do not have the number of people climbing in the US that other sports can claim. So with so few (relatively speaking) climbers, and so few falls on said gear, how often are aliens truly tested. Surely not more than a hand-full of times a week? Again, my estimates could be brutally off, but when this is considered alongside the number of recent complaints regarding their craftsmanship, it is troubling to say the least. I don't want to extrapolate too far, but it is something to consider.
We are consumers, not a jury, and our lives depend on whether or not joe-solderer was paying close enough attention to his job on that particular day. We are right to be very concerned, and very anxious for a response from CCH. I for one have much more important things to worry about when I'm climbing above my last piece. I don't like stressing about my cam popping apart.
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iceisnice
Jan 4, 2006, 5:09 PM
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yes, cams can rotate and get stuck in that position. happens a lot. get out climbing enough and you'll see it happen quite a bit. it usually happens with the larger style cams, but can happen with any size. its just a possibility and needs to be answered first. MOST "cam failures" i've seen were from usage. that may sound harsh and hard for many to accept, but it is true.
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davidji
Jan 4, 2006, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Also, and others may shed some light, looking at the male part of the two piece cam that I said looked like an awefully clean break...wouldn't there be some type of broken soder, just something rough where the pieces came apart? I don't see any soder on either part in the picture. Again, that's a question i don't know the answer to which makes me question this whole thing. It seems to me, and I am not an expert (thought I would be clearer for some), that if that bonding failed, soder would be visible on that male part after the fact...or the female for that matter...
If there were no solder visible in such a case, maybe it never got soldered in the first place. However when I look at the photo on page 3, it appears to me there's solder on both parts.
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josephgdawson
Jan 4, 2006, 6:20 PM
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As a lover of Aliens, this thread bums me out. I will not buy another Alien again if they do not handle this problem in a responsible manner. I have recommended Aliens to numerous friends because I can often get a bomber placement with an Alien where I can only get a mediocre placement with a Camalot. I will not be telling any of my friends to buy them.
Have any problems been reported on other sizes of Aliens?
I remember a thread about a gray Alien that sheared during a fall and the dude decked and died.
As an aside, when I lead, I always, ALWAYS, make sure there are at least two pieces between me and the deck. One of the cornerstones of pro is redundancy.
CCH, we await your response.
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architect
Jan 4, 2006, 6:23 PM
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Gee,
8 pages in a day! I heart rc.com
anyways my two cents.
This happened to my Orange alien as well.
last season, i had bought it at the beginning of the season and same exact thing happened. took it back to the local shop (Rock and Snow in New Paltz) and they replaced it for me. What happened? the trigger wire came unattached to the trigger. boy was my partner pissed when he cleaned it.
Turns out Alien has changed the way they are attaching the trigger cables to the heads. by the looks of this picture (the screws on the end of the trigger wire) this is the new design.
Btw a couple things.
1 - all you who talked about attaching the cable thru solder, Aliens (the Bigger ones orange on up ) like this one in the picture are attached via screws and the thread is still there (this is new as of 2005).
2 - the trigger wire is in no way active during a fall.
So if it was placed correctly in a good placement and didn't walk then It would not pop out. It did not Break from the fall. looks like the wire screw on the trigger came off (defect) and it was a bad placement that pop'd.
Most likely why he backed it up anyways.
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josephgdawson
Jan 4, 2006, 6:25 PM
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In response to what Architect wrote, it is clear that the head of the cam came of when the OP fell on it, not just a trigger wire.
What is the url of CCH? I always have a hard time finding it?
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architect
Jan 4, 2006, 6:30 PM
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deleted my post due to the fact I didn't notice the ENTIRE head had broke off not just the trigger wire!
Damn! that does suck!
had to go back and reexamine the picture on page 3.
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bobruef
Jan 4, 2006, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: In response to what Architect wrote, it is clear that the head of the cam came of when the OP fell on it, not just a trigger wire. What is the url of CCH? I always have a hard time finding it?
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/
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davidji
Jan 4, 2006, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: This happened to my Orange alien as well. last season, i had bought it at the beginning of the season and same exact thing happened. took it back to the local shop (Rock and Snow in New Paltz) and they replaced it for me. What happened? the trigger wire came unattached to the trigger. |
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jsj42
Jan 4, 2006, 6:58 PM
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From the front page of the CCH website:
"Handmade Quality and Mechanical Perfection... these key features are why Alien Cams are so Strong, Dependable, and Durable."
Regarding the poster who asked why I'd climb on gear that I can't trust: Sometimes it's the best you can get.
Regarding the repeated posters who make comments about always having two pieces between you and the ground: Sometimes that's just not possible.
And finally,
In reply to: Everyone take a deep breath and calm down... Jeez.... Like a bunch of pansies..... We now know there might be a problem with some recent Aliens. Climbing is dangerous. Remember? The gear might pull, the rock might break, the biner might unclip or break itself. And sometimes, yes, the gear itself fails. People die and stuff. Take up chess if you don't like it. Grow up.
Give me a break. Are we supposed to take you seriously? Who are you?
When I buy gear I expect it to work as advertised (ie to not fall apart). They get my $54, I get a cam that works. The risk starts there, not before I even buy the cam.
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bobruef
Jan 4, 2006, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: When I buy gear I expect it to work as advertised (ie to not fall apart). They get my $54, I get a cam that works. The risk starts there, not before I even buy the cam.
exactly
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josephgdawson
Jan 4, 2006, 7:12 PM
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In response to what Architect wrote, it is clear that the head of the cam came of when the OP fell on it, not just a trigger wire.
What is the url of CCH? I always have a hard time finding it?
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healyje
Jan 4, 2006, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: What I want to see done--to clear CCH or prove them to be in the wrong--is for an outside source to test the cams in question for strength and possible manufacturing errors not all ready brought to attention. We can speculate all we want, but until there is some definitive answer from an expert in manufacturing or condusive tests to prove some error on CCH's part--than I will continue to be skeptical...
Well, unless you're blind, haven't read all these posts, or read the other threads both here and on SuperTopo then how on earth can you be skeptical? The OP posted up good, clear photos and has been more then forthcoming, I and others who have been around along time have posted up problems we have had with CCH service and cams, and a number of others on both forums have as well. Be as skeptical as you want, but we are way, way past skepticism, "tests", or "proof" at this point - there is at the very least months worth of cam production that is suspect that runs at from 8/05 back to whenever the previous similar solder failure was. Then there are the cams that went out the door with misaligned axle holes resulting in no range. Again, I love my two sets of hybrids, but I do know about manufacturing and QA systems and this situation is simply unacceptable.
Does CCH need to respond to this forum in hours or days - not necessarily. Do they need to respond to the OP immediately? Hell, yes! Look, it isn't rocket science, when a customer sends you a problem cam or calls/emails a problem you respond immediately acknowledging you heard them, resolve the issue in a timely manner (days or weeks), and get back to them with that resolution or repaired product without them having to badger you for months. It's been more than painfully obvious Dave needs to ease up on his grip a bit, get some solid, reliable help in operations and QA, and find someone capable of owning customer service. If he would get over whatever it is that prevents him from doing those relatively simple things he'd still make his way clear of all this...
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foresthill
Jan 4, 2006, 8:21 PM
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Here's the email I just sent to cch@aliencamsbycch.com:
Dear Folks -
I've been using aliens for many years now. They are an essential part of my rack, and I love them. I've taken several falls on them and have never been disappointed by their performance.
However, I've recently read a few things which make me wonder if I should ever buy any more aliens. These two threads cause me great concern about your quality control:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=105618&f=0&b=0
I'm also very concerned that despite these reports, there's been no recall so far as I'm aware, in fact no response at all to the climbing community. These problems (especially the first one!) could easily result in someone dying, and it makes it highly unlikely that I will ever buy another alien until I hear that these issues have been resolved and any potentially defective items recalled.
An (up until now) very happy customer,
Forest Hill
Tucson, AZ
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nuts_r_us
Jan 4, 2006, 8:35 PM
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Beautiful hands for a crack climber... :wink:
My orange alien is from 8/04 and looks to have an appropriate cam range, but really would like to hear from CCH soon. Hello? Anyone there?
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