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twclimber
Feb 9, 2006, 6:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: yes, there is a drilled 3 finger pocket at the base of killer, but most people do the AO start. so what? so, it is chipping, which some of Todd's buttboys seem adamant about saying he didn't do... and he obviously did. Idiot. Todd Skinner put up very few of the routes at Sinks. Killer was equipped by the Greg and Mike Cook and redpointed first by Greg Collins. There is a drilled .13- start to Killer. It's a stupid little slot and maybe another bad pocket. Nobody ever even thinks of doing it. Most of the manufacturing in Killer Cave happend in the blank rock that starts some of the routes in the center of the cave (no, it's not right, but that's how it is). I always get a kick out of the people who insist that the jugs in the cave are manufactured, but ignore the routes on the Hardware wall that go up blatantly chiseled and cut out edges (none of these are Skinner's routes). I haven't seen Todd in years, but I always knew him to be a kind spirit. If you judge people by their oververall kindness and goodwill, Todd is an outstanding individual. wes, when you responded to saxonyclimber, you forgot to address these parts of his post. Your hominem attack on Skinner was a bad idea, because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say.
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fuzzbait
Feb 9, 2006, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: limestone gets comfortized, period. who cares if it is more or less than somewhere else? This is a bit off topic and I had no intentions of weighing in on this thread as I have never met Todd Skinner but this statement really bothered me when I read it. I've just recently started bolting my own routes. On my last route my partner went up to check the spot I wanted to place a bolt to see if it was the best spot. He had a hammer with him and started whacking a flake I was intending as part of the route. I was dumbfounded by his actions and screamed at him to stop. He calmly replied that it was "very sharp" and "painful" that he was "just taking the edge off" making it more "comfortable". Before he could throw another whack I lowered him quickly. kyote321 asks who cares and well I care. I care a great deal. I will not under any circumstances alter solid rock in any way, shape or form on any of my routes. In my opinion comfortizing Does equal chipping and it is just plain wrong. I know this debate has been done to death in other threads but nobody here said boo about this comment. I just could not let a comment like this slide. Sorry for intruding on your debate about Todd. kyote321 if I misinterpreted your meaning I do apologize. Joe
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kyote321
Feb 9, 2006, 1:55 PM
Post #53 of 101
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thanks for responding in adult language, unlike our 'buttbuddy' wes i do politely disagree. the sharp little pointy bits that are inherent to limestone holds i do beleive need to de removed. tapped lightly with a hammer as to not alter the shape of the hold. my perspective is this: all of it is manufactured: the road you drove in on, the random, unmaintained trail to the crag, the chalk on the crag, the bolts, the shoe rubber, etc. taking off a little bit of rock that is sharp, that detracts from the roate, which will eventually go anyway from traffic (non-suffering traffic, as opposed to suffering traffic) adds to the route and the experience for the climber. yes, it isn't about the rock, but franky, it never was. more solid rock like granite or more solid rock like hueco is a different story. as for Skinner, as stated, don't judge him by all the routes in Lander! many put things up there. there is a drilled pocket for an alternate 13 start to killer that no one does. who cares? if you are obsessing about that pocket and not taking in the beauty of the cave and wyoming than you are by definition.. near sighted :oops:
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whipperboy
Feb 9, 2006, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: if you are obsessing about that pocket and not taking in the beauty of the cave and wyoming than you are by definition.. near sighted :oops: Amen brother.....
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fuzzbait
Feb 9, 2006, 3:13 PM
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I completely understand your point and can see where you are coming from. My partner said the exact same thing (although he was doing a little more than removing sharp 'points'). My feeling is if it can't be removed with a soft bristle brush it is staying on my route until, as you said, it comes off naturally through climber traffic, if ever. Your point about making it more comfortable for the first group of climbers before the points come off anyway is commendable but I cannot bring myself to do this and will not on any of my routes. (All we have in this area is limestone by the way.) So I am not accused of jacking this thread I will make a comment about Skinner. He is the guy who first began bolting the area I climb a lot in now. He put up some amazing lines. There has been a lot of traffic over the years so the rock is getting a little worn and I am no expert but nothing looks or feels 'manufactured', 'chipped', whatever. Joe
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angry
Feb 9, 2006, 3:44 PM
Post #56 of 101
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In reply to: wes, when you responded to saxonyclimber, you forgot to address these parts of his post. Your hominem attack on Skinner was a bad idea, because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say. This is coming from someone I've caught in lies before (lies about me, though I've never met you). So if someone lies you ignore them, but you lie, and we are supposed to listen to you. I'm not saying good or bad about Skimmer's personality, I don't know him. It just seems that access problems, accusations, and angry locals are his biggest legacy. I wonder why that is the case?
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fracture
Feb 9, 2006, 3:55 PM
Post #57 of 101
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Hey Wes: religious-style arguments aside, what's so bad about a drilled pocket in a blank section of wall anyway?
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dingus
Feb 9, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: Hey Wes: religious-style arguments aside, what's so bad about a drilled pocket in a blank section of wall anyway? Aside from style or philosophy, nothing whatsoever. Its just a rock. DMT
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gavinshmavin
Feb 9, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Some limestone is so sharp as to threaten to cut the ropes of later parties. Witness the several fatalities at El Potrero Chico (some, I know, from rockfall, but a few from cut ropes). Given that climbing (particularly sport climbing, and particularly sport climbing on the softer rock types) inevitably alters the rock to some degree, I think it's a good policy to 'soften' limestone edges to the extent necessary to prevent rope failure. It doesn't take much of an edge to cut a rope under tension, so this is something that a responsible FA party (only talking about sport routes here) should consider carefully. My 2 cents, with apologies for having nothing juicy to say about Todd Skinner, who seemed like a pretty nice guy when he sold me some shoes in '98.
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say. 1) I heard Todd drilled the alternate start to Killer and I have yet to hear anyone claim otherwise. The project I was talking about to the right of Killer was also said to be one of Todd's, drilled pockets and all. 2) I really don't care if you are willing to consider what I have to say. I say what I want and if you can't tell the obvious inflamatory remarks made ofr entertainment from the things you should really be considering that is your problem.
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: Hey Wes: religious-style arguments aside, what's so bad about a drilled pocket in a blank section of wall anyway? It just makes so much more sense to bolt on a nice Pusher sloper...
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rockprodigy
Feb 9, 2006, 5:48 PM
Post #62 of 101
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In reply to: My feeling is if it can't be removed with a soft bristle brush it is staying on my route until, as you said, it comes off naturally through climber traffic, if ever. This will never happen because nobody will ever climb your routes if you don't comfortize the holds. There are grey areas...they are called "Life". There have been other people throughout history who saw things in black and white...they have done things like shoot up abortion clinics, fly planes into buildings, drag people behind pickup trucks, etc.
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pancaketom
Feb 9, 2006, 6:00 PM
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The rock in question at Sinks and Wild Iris is Dolomite, not limestone. The extra magnesium in the mix seems to make it a bit sharper and harder than limestone. (the geo-geek in me couldn't let that pass). I do think the majority of the routes have been comfortized in the area. It really isn't much fun pulling on razor blade edged pockets. Todd has always been nice enough to me. He is a great story teller and includes the "little" people in stories and conversations in ways that some "big name" climbers do not. He does seem to be a lightning rod, maybe that is a consequence of his larger than life persona. He has no doubt done some stuff that many would not agree with, but that is the nature of trying to push the limits for a while. That doesn't mean you have to agree with him or worship him, or let him do things you disagree with without speaking up, but personal attacks are less likely to get your point across and more likely to make enemies.
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rocamosca
Feb 9, 2006, 6:04 PM
Post #64 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: My feeling is if it can't be removed with a soft bristle brush it is staying on my route until, as you said, it comes off naturally through climber traffic, if ever. This will never happen because nobody will ever climb your routes if you don't comfortize the holds. There are grey areas...they are called "Life". There have been other people throughout history who saw things in black and white...they have done things like shoot up abortion clinics, fly planes into buildings, drag people behind pickup trucks, etc. Yep, Shooting people, crashing planes into buildings, refusing to comfortize a hold... it's all the same in my book... :roll:
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 6:17 PM
Post #65 of 101
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In reply to: The rock in question at Sinks and Wild Iris is Dolomite, not limestone. The extra magnesium in the mix seems to make it a bit sharper and harder than limestone. Dolomite is only slightly harder than calcite and the slight difference likely has no effect on the rock's sharpness. I think a much more valid explaination would be calcite's reaction with acidic water combined with the retrograde solubility of calcite.
In reply to: He has no doubt done some stuff that many would not agree with, but that is the nature of trying to push the limits for a while. There are plenty of people who have pushed the limits for much longer than he has that don't have the same reputation.
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jaybro
Feb 9, 2006, 7:20 PM
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"This will never happen because nobody will ever climb your routes if you don't comfortize the holds." Possibly the stupidest sentence ever posted.
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twclimber
Feb 9, 2006, 7:39 PM
Post #67 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: wes, when you responded to saxonyclimber, you forgot to address these parts of his post. Your hominem attack on Skinner was a bad idea, because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say. This is coming from someone I've caught in lies before (lies about me, though I've never met you). So if someone lies you ignore them, but you lie, and we are supposed to listen to you. I'm not saying good or bad about Skimmer's personality, I don't know him. It just seems that access problems, accusations, and angry locals are his biggest legacy. I wonder why that is the case? Actually, That matter was focused on YOUR lies. You led people to believe you had done routes that you had not.
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twclimber
Feb 9, 2006, 7:49 PM
Post #68 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say. 1) I heard Todd drilled the alternate start to Killer and I have yet to hear anyone claim otherwise. The project I was talking about to the right of Killer was also said to be one of Todd's, drilled pockets and all. Todd did not established/bolted or chipped any of the routes in Killer Cave. Piana, Dusl, Collins and the Cook bros. put up most of the route there.2) I really don't care if you are willing to consider what I have to say. I say what I want and if you can't tell the obvious inflamatory remarks made ofr entertainment from the things you should really be considering that is your problem. I also entertain myself here, but I don't just post so I can read what I have written. Civil communication is an essential life skill. Not every post you make has to be an attack or insult.
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 7:52 PM
Post #69 of 101
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blow me
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twclimber
Feb 9, 2006, 7:57 PM
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Is it not true that rudeness is a weak man's imitation of strength, power and knowledge?
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whipperboy
Feb 9, 2006, 7:57 PM
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What was this thread about again? Help! Help! I'm off route!
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 7:58 PM
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If you are going to quote stuff and bold it up and all that kind of stuff you should at least do it accurately: from saxony: "Todd Skinner put up very few of the routes at Sinks. Killer was equipped by the Greg and Mike Cook and redpointed first by Greg Collins. There is a drilled .13- start to Killer..." None of which denies Todd had something to do with drilling the pockets in the Killer Cave.
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weschrist
Feb 9, 2006, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: Is it not true that rudeness is a weak man's imitation of strength, power and knowledge? nope, that has been proven wrong many times
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twclimber
Feb 9, 2006, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Is it not true that rudeness is a weak man's imitation of strength, power and knowledge? nope, that has been proven wrong many times As you have so eloquently attempted to prove in the past and present.
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angry
Feb 9, 2006, 10:24 PM
Post #75 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: wes, when you responded to saxonyclimber, you forgot to address these parts of his post. Your hominem attack on Skinner was a bad idea, because your claim that Todd "obviously did" chip Killer was challenged by factual information. You may have valid arguments regarding Skinner's ethics (in climbing), but this is the kind of childish behavior that makes me less willing to consider what you have to say. This is coming from someone I've caught in lies before (lies about me, though I've never met you). So if someone lies you ignore them, but you lie, and we are supposed to listen to you. I'm not saying good or bad about Skimmer's personality, I don't know him. It just seems that access problems, accusations, and angry locals are his biggest legacy. I wonder why that is the case? Actually, That matter was focused on YOUR lies. You led people to believe you had done routes that you had not. Dude, you are totally confused here, I'm not Paul Piana!!!
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