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kasharp
Apr 6, 2006, 5:52 PM
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The "two groups, 1 anchor" thread got me thinking about a somewhat similar experience that I had and I wanted to get some opinions on it.
There were three of us climbing at the southside of Looking Glass (NC) a couple weeks ago, it was a fairly crowded day, one of the first warm weekend days of the spring.
We decided to climb Gemini Crack, a fun 5.8, and since there were three of us, it was decided this would be a good opportunity for some picture taking. So my friend led the route, set up a a fixed line, and then cleaned his gear on rappel. Fortunately no one else was waiting to get on the route, so we didn't feel bad about having two different people lead, take some time to take pictures, etc.
So I started ascending the fixed line, while the second guy starts to lead. All well and fine, he's moving quickly, and I'm taking pictures,
then I hear a call from the top of the route: "Can we rappel off of this green line??" (The tree that my line was fixed on is the rap tree for a few other routes in the area.)
My response, given that I was attached to the green line they were speaking of was "NO! Do not rappel off the green line, I am on that line!"
Then there was silence, so the leader continued climbing, while I kept jugging and taking pictures, then "Whoosh!" two rope ends go flying past us. This was when I got kind of irritated. The ropes went flying down but no one called out "ROPE!", as is the customary thing to do when you're flinging ropes off the top of a route. Especially when there's someone leading the route that you're planning to rappel off of.
So I yell "Rope!" so that my friend, who was belaying, knows that a rope is coming down.
Then I grumbled for a minute, "first they want to rappel on the rope that I'm on, then they throw down their ropes with out any warning... grrr"
But I decided to yell up to them to let them know that there was a leader on the route and to be careful when they were rappelling down. There's definitely enough space for them to have rapped down to the right and avoided both the climber, and myself. Instead, they came straight down on top of me.
They also (apparently) failed to notice the GIANT flake at the top of the route, in front of the rappel tree. So they get to the ground, and try to pull their rope (again without warning), and the knot gets stuck around the flake. Nobody knew this at the the time though, they just kept pulling, then asking the belayer if he knew what was wrong, then yelling up at me asking if I could see what it was stuck on (I couldn't at the time), then swinging the rope around. It was all very disconcerting, and the guy who was leading started getting really annoyed and a little bit freaked out. The people with the stuck rope then asked me to jug up and get it out, and I said that I would find out what the problem was when I got to the top, after the leader had finished, which apparently annoyed them. They seemed in quite a hurry to get down. This led to more pulling and swinging and flicking of the rope until the guy climbing finally told me to ask them to hold off until he was done with the route. So I called down to them and said "Can you guys stop swinging the rope around and everything until he's done leading this?" - which got no reply, but they did stop.
By this point he was almost done with the route. I was so annoyed that instead of going up to investigate why their rope was stuck, I just lowered myself to the ground, and let my friend take care of getting their rope undone.
When I got to the bottom the guy asked me if I had gotten their rope unstuck and what the problem was, and I told him that I hadn't checked it out, but that the climber would. Instead of replying, he just turned around and didn't say anything else.
The guy at the top of the route got their knot out from underneath the flake where it had been stuck, and they went on their merry way. No thank yous or apologies.
When all three of us had completed the route and were back on the ground, I commented on what jerks they were. The guy who had gotten the rope unstuck said that it was caught underneath the flake and that he couldn't believe they had taken precautions to prevent that, and also didn't understand why they were so bewildered when they were unable to pull the rope. That seemed to me a forgiveable mistake.
The problem I had was that they first tried to rappel on our line, then dropped their ropes without warning, then rappelled right on top of us, and then were messing with the rope, while someone was leading. AND were total jerks about it.
If I had been leading (I'm a new leader - first sport lead 2 weeks ago, have gotten a couple trad leads under my belt in the past few months) I would have FREAKED out if I saw/heard something flying down past me, without warning, and if people were rappelling so close to me. But really, I think it was their attitude that made it that much worse. If you ask and are considerate about it, it's usually pretty cool. If your rope gets stuck be patient about it, especially since this couple had no other way to retrieve their rope without us.
So my question (after my long rant) is:
What sort of etiquette is there when you're rappelling while others are climbing?
It seems like they should have asked, or at least informed us that they were going to be rapping down on our route. They hadn't climbed the route we were on, they had climbed up a different route, then walked over to the rap tree. I also think it's really unsafe not to warn someone when you're dropping a rope, and then to be so careless when you're trying to pull the rope from the ground. When did people start being so inconsiderate?
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kasharp
Apr 6, 2006, 5:58 PM
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ummm... could one of the mods move this OUT of the slacklining forum... :oops:
i posted here on accident, i'm not even sure how.
:lol:
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billydude
Apr 6, 2006, 5:59 PM
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i totaly agree with you that they should have called rope when they threw thier rope down but accidents do happen and in the grand scheme of things there are certainly worse things that could have happened. that being said, if you know your raping off a point where several routes converge you should yell. about the rope getting stuck, maybe suggest to them the article on the main page about how to avoid that. its good to hear that you guys made it down alright, it could have easily gotten pretty ugly.
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caughtinside
Apr 6, 2006, 6:07 PM
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Well, asking to rap your fixed line isn't a big deal. The rope was fixed, and they asked. I've fixed lines on descents, so that I could run laps on a cliff, w/o having to haul a 2nd rope every time.
Chukking the rope without warning was poor form, especially since they were in verbal contact with you.
With regards to rapping the route your friend was leading, that's not necessarily bad if that's the standard descent, but they should have checked it out first. And probably waited for your friend to finish the pitch. Throwing ropes onto an unaware leader is very poor form, and can be dangerous.
Glad no one got hurt. Can't let your ego get in the way of communicating with other climbers.
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cintune
Apr 6, 2006, 6:12 PM
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That sucks, but there's not much else you could have reasonably done. Except maybe avoid popular spots, because that's always going to be where the most idiots show up. At least they didn't pull hard enough to free the flake and drop it on your buddy. You could take comfort in the probability that they'll end up Darwining themselves with their dipshit behavior, sooner or later.
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lichenmuncher
Apr 6, 2006, 6:36 PM
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:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil:
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reg
Apr 6, 2006, 6:42 PM
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not tryin to blow my own horn but I have rapped next to leaders before but i am very careful not to interfer even to the point of stopping and waiting - also havin a few words if there cool about. it seems a lot of folks today are wrapped up in their ownselves, their own egos and don't have time to be cortious or yeilding - it's about me! may sound corny but the golden is a good way to live - treat um like you want to be treated.
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markc
Apr 6, 2006, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: i totaly agree with you that they should have called rope when they threw thier rope down but accidents do happen and in the grand scheme of things there are certainly worse things that could have happened.
If we don't teach people to use the appropriate etiquette while rappelling and passing, worse things are almost certain to happen. This sort of thing is ridiculous. Even when I'm confident I'm the only person at a crag, I'll call out before dropping rope.
Always call out before dropping rope, and give enough time for reply. When possible, give a look before tossing. When dropping or pulling rope, consider your impact on parties both above and below you. If there are parties on route, ask for permission prior to dropping or pulling. Be delicate when moving past other parties. Don't rush, but be efficient.
I had a couple jerks drop rope (with lovely stopper knots) on my partner while he was leading. They called out as they released, which was better than nothing. They had no clue where the next station was, and kept yelling down for advice while merrily bouncing down the face. The tails of their ropes were just past my partner's position, and he ducked behind features to avoid getting smacked further by the whipping tails. That's exactly how not to rappel.
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kasharp
Apr 6, 2006, 7:48 PM
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yea, i don't think i should have been that annoyed by them asking to rap on my fixed line, i just remember being in a panic for a moment thinking that they would try ... that momentary fear made me snappier than if i had been on the ground when they asked, i think
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moose_droppings
Apr 6, 2006, 7:57 PM
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Did you give them any indication as to how long you were going to tie up the rap route for the other routes, maybe this gave them an attitude right of the bat. They still should of yelled "rope", thats just being a jerk for the sake of being one.
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kman
Apr 6, 2006, 8:07 PM
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There are always 2 sides to a story and the truth is some where in between.
In reply to: Can we rappel off of this green line??" (The tree that my line was fixed on is the rap tree for a few other routes in the area.) My response, given that I was attached to the green line they were speaking of was "NO! Do not rappel off the green line, I am on that line!" Then there was silence, so the leader continued climbing, while I kept jugging and taking pictures, then "Whoosh!" two rope ends go flying past us
Maybe they got annoyed that you were blocking the rap route, and rather than clearing out of the way so they can rap you ignored them and went about your own business of jugging and taking pics? You said that you were jugging up and down on the rap route tree taking pics.
Personally if I was blocking a rap route that was the standard descent for several other routes I would stop taking photo's and let them know I am clearing out for them.
If you put yourself in their shoes did you maybe use your bitch voice when you told them you were on the line? Perhaps that combined with you not being willing to move out of the way of the rap route pissed them off enough to say f her just throw them down.
On the other hand it was not cool of them to not communicate their intentions with you though. They should not just launch their ropes down like they did. Like the other poster said, that's just bad form, as is flicking their ropes about on you guys.
So yeah...really shitty of them to do what they did but how were your actions percieved by them?
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kasharp
Apr 6, 2006, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: Did you give them any indication as to how long you were going to tie up the rap route for the other routes, maybe this gave them an attitude right of the bat. They still should of yelled "rope", thats just being a jerk for the sake of being one.
no, we didn't, but it's definitely possible to rappel there around other parties. it's actually really easy. i'm sure it was more difficult because we had on person leading, and then me on the fixed line, but they should have been able to get around relatively easily.
and if we hadn't been they're, they would have been SOL as far as getting their rope back
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kman
Apr 6, 2006, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: yea, i don't think i should have been that annoyed by them asking to rap on my fixed line, i just remember being in a panic for a moment thinking that they would try ... that momentary fear made me snappier than if i had been on the ground when they asked, i think
Even if they did try to rap on your line they wouldn't be able to since you were weighting the line anyways.
So it sounds like you did respond to them in your bitch voice eh :lol: Then knowing that you were on the main rap route for several routes, you continued jugging and taking pics ignoring their desire to get off the rock. Then they threw their rope down...then you grumbled some shit that they probably heard thus adding more negativity to the mix. No wonder why they were no longer interested in communicating. Treat people how you want to be treated. What they did is not cool, but it sounds like you played a part of rudeness in this too.
2 sides to every story eh guys.
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kasharp
Apr 6, 2006, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: Even if they did try to rap on your line they wouldn't be able to since you were weighting the line anyways. So it sounds like you did respond to them in your b---- voice eh :lol: Then knowing that you were on the main rap route for several routes, you continued jugging and taking pics ignoring their desire to get off the rock. Then they threw their rope down...then you grumbled some s--- that they probably heard thus adding more negativity to the mix. No wonder why they were no longer interested in communicating. Treat people how you want to be treated. What they did is not cool, but it sounds like you played a part of rudeness in this too. 2 sides to every story eh guys.
yea, i know they couldn't rap on it if it was weighted, it's the irrational fears that get you sometimes. and i think i answered more in my "please don't kill me" voice. :lol:
i also don't think they heard me when i was "grumbling", they were about 70 feet above me. otherwise, those are some good ears.
but no, we definitely were not taking over the "rap lanes" so to speak.
i don't know how to link pictures, but here's a photo from the day of the route
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ist_start=1&id=71289
so I was connected to the rap tree ... which is REALLY large, it has several really burly cables around it and is sort of to the right of the route that we were on, so i was more on the left side of the tree, and they came down towards the right. if that makes any sense. not sure if you can tell much from the photo.
either way, even if we had been perceived as jerks (and maybe we were) , i still don't think there's any reason to be careless with not warning other parties of your actions.
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kman
Apr 6, 2006, 8:33 PM
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In reply to: i still don't think there's any reason to be careless with not warning other parties of your actions.
Agreed.
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sspssp
Apr 6, 2006, 8:42 PM
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In reply to: Boy o boy this one got me steaming :evil: , I personaly would have gotten thier rope un-stuck pretty quickly and cut it into 2' peices, then kicked thier freaking ass's. Then the next time they showed up with thier new rope and newly healed ass's I would do what they did to you... I can't belive that s---.
This would be my first reaction also. However, lets think it through. If you want to blow off steam at them, then you would be more than justified. However, if you want climbers to not through ropes down on you without warning, cursing them out isn't going to change their behavior.
Casually (and hopefully non-defensively) asking them to yell rope next before they chuck their rope over the cliff and asking them to be a bit more courteous about swinging the rope near the leader. Yea, they might just be A__holes that aren't going to change. However, it might be that they are a bit clueless and a lower key approach might improve things for the future.
Most climbers you meet at the craigs are pretty cool. I would like to see that culture continued.
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j_ung
Apr 6, 2006, 8:47 PM
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The Gemini rappel is the only descent for about ten different routes and I wouldn't have waited on you guys either. That's just part of climbing Gemini when other parties are on the cliff. But it certianly sounds like a little courtesy on their parts was in order. Not yelling rope is always poor form, and in fact a better idea than throwing rope would have been to saddle bag it and carry the coil down with them, like so...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=71594
Just like that other thread... it seems the consideration you were due wasn't afforded you. And yeah, that flake is a pretty obvious rope eater.
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j_ung
Apr 6, 2006, 8:55 PM
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j_ung moved this thread from Slacklining to General.
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dingus
Apr 6, 2006, 8:59 PM
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Over the course of a career you will have ample opportunity to be on both ends of this spectrum. I think the correct points have been made though:
They should have indicated 'rope' no matter what. That's a safety issue and being pissy is no excuse.
You should have made room and told them so.
You should have said something about not yelling rope, perhaps whilst apologizing for hogging the rap route for poser pics, to take the sting out of the indictment. (First of all fellas, let me apologize... but that rope sure took us by surprise! We usually holler 'rope' in these parts...)
10 years from now, when you're on some ledge somewhere waiting for some lowly gumbs to clear a path you feel they shouldn't be blocking to begin with, remember how it feels.
Not yelling rope is a problem. But the rest... is subject to very gray lines.
Also, it sounds like they couldn't see your party? When I can see the party below, I don't YELL rope anyway. I simply say 'rope' and watch to make sure I was heard. I personally hate all that irrational yelling at the crags.
DMT
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lichenmuncher
Apr 6, 2006, 9:10 PM
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blah :shock:
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ne_dan
Apr 6, 2006, 9:27 PM
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Well first of all was the line that you were taking pictures from through the rap rings on the tree. If it was then of course they can ask if they can rap your lines.
Second, rapping from that tree is the only way off every climb in that general area. So just because you wanted some pictures doesn't mean you can occupy the whole area, and everyone has to work off your schedule.
Third, sure those guys were assholes for throwing the rope with saying anything first but who cares, it happens live and learn.
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mr8615
Apr 7, 2006, 7:16 PM
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Here's a little more fuel for the fire, and perhaps some clarification. I was leading the line, Katie was not through the rap rings, and we were absolutely not in anyone's way. We know that it is a popular rap station for all of the surrounding routes and as such kept ourselves well out of the way.
When they asked to rap, I yelled up and said please wait, there is a leader on the route and I'll be up there in a second. A few seconds later their ropes came crashing down into both Katie and I, rather than throwing or lowering them off to the side (the direct rappel) they had thrown them directly on us! That was a good lesson for me, I was fairly run out at the time on a comfortable lead, but it perfectly illustrated why it's always a good idea to place adaquate protection. What made me angry was that I had asked them to please wait, and that I would complete the route in a timely manner, and I know they heard me.
The other thing was that they had the nerve to yell at us about their stuck ropes as though it was our fault and our responsibility to get them down. When they started swinging their ropes around after Katie had begun descending, I asked her to tell them to stop as they were coming close to lassoing me and pulling me off. In angry hindsight, yes it sure would've taught them a lesson if I hadn't unstuck their ropes and had just rapped down on our own ropes, pulled them and went on our way, but I'm glad that's not the way I decided to go. After getting their ropes unstuck, they pulled them and were gone before I could get down to say anything. I guess I could see them thinking we're gumbys takin up the rap line, but I don't think that was the case, as we had taken obvious measures to stay out of the way for rapping parties and they tossed their rope in our laps, even though the direct rappel line was off to the side.
Let me re-emphasize that we were not hogging up the rap lane and had made sure that we were well out of the way, in fact one other party rapped right by us without any problems. After a few kind words and a gentle rope pull, they were on their way without delay or mishap.
The moral of the story: there are two kinds of people in this world, those who rappel with care for others, and those who don't, which will you be?
Mark
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climbsomething
Apr 7, 2006, 7:30 PM
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I can see why they'd be annoyed if you were blocking traffic with your shooting. But it sounds like there was plenty of room to maneuver even if there was just one tree. Sounds like their actions far outweighed whatever you might have done wrong. If they could have tossed the rap lines elsewhere, they should have, and there's no excuse for not yelling "rope." Some people are just jerks.
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j_ung
Apr 7, 2006, 7:30 PM
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The latter!
No wait! I mean the former! :x
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