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sterlingjim
Apr 18, 2006, 2:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Forces could be quite a bit lower when a live person is the mass. Any volunteers? Hell no. Thanks Jim. Those numbers speak clearly about what is and isn't safe to anchor with. Would you consider the same situation, but with a climbing-rope tie-in, to be the same as a regular high-factor fall?
I'm sure I have data on this somewhere but probably can't put my finger on it any time soon. I'll do some drops today. Stay tuned.
Another point to make is that clipping in with a static sling is exactly the same as working a move while connected direct to a quickdraw which has been shown to be a no no quite definitely.
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billybearings
Apr 18, 2006, 2:51 PM
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Why not just make the whole daisy chain full strength and avoid the possible problems?
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krusher4
Apr 18, 2006, 3:19 PM
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good point. I don't really know about the manfaction process on these but, it seems like the weight and handling would not really be affected too much?
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j_ung
Apr 18, 2006, 3:23 PM
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Because even when the daisy is full strength, you still have still a major problem:
In reply to: 11/16" nylon, impact force 18.4kN, held 1" nylon, impact force 21.11kN, held 1/2" Spectra, impact force, 20.02kN, failed 5/8" Spectra, impact force, 19.2kN, failed 10mm Dyneema, impact force, 18.9kN, failed
If you ever feel any of the those impact forces, I promise you'll wish you hadn't. :wink:
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sterlingjim
Apr 18, 2006, 3:51 PM
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Disclaimer: this is totally non scientific as it is a very small sample and should not be considered conclusive in any way shape or form. Personal results may vary and may cause serious injury or death. Listen to your mother and quit climbing.
Here's a snap shot:
approximately 4 foot drop, factor 2, 80kg, all forces in kN, all specimens are new, 2nd drops carried out 5 minutes after the 1st.
10.4mm (single) 1st drop = 7.24, 2nd drop = 9.82, held both
8.8mm (half) 1st drop= 8.95, 2nd drop = 12.15, broke at knot on 2nd
7.7mm (twin) 1st drop= 7.32, 2nd drop = 9.83, broke at knot on 2nd
8mm acc cord (for laughs) 1st drop = 13.59, broke at knot on 1st
Again, this is a SERIOUSLY HARD drop and is impossible to duplicate in real life.
Sorry, this is all I have time for today.
Jim
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dirtineye
Apr 18, 2006, 3:53 PM
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Wow, another good climbing thread on rc.com.
What's come over you guys?
LOL, I am now thinking, 11/16 nylon runners with beer knots, over and over in my head.
Sterlingjim, I guess you are rope company Sterling Jim?
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sterlingjim
Apr 18, 2006, 4:14 PM
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Yes. I am the Design and Development department for Sterling Rope. Please note the singular.
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echo
Apr 19, 2006, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: Yes. I am the Design and Development department for Sterling Rope. Please note the singular.
Sounds like a bitchen job! and thanks for all the great info. Its invaluable!
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2006, 6:05 AM
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Thanks for giving a little credit to this Jim!
Also, as was published by Rock and Ice a little while ago in their static falls special:
In reply to: Brand new 22" long spectra runners, CE rated to nearly 5000 pounds, broke at the the end of their 44 inch falls.
From p.107, Rock and Ice Issue 137 October 2004.
Cheers,
Jim D.
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norushnomore
Apr 19, 2006, 9:40 AM
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sterlingjim, can you test a Metolius PAS for us?
Would be a great info to have
Thanks in advance
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sterlingjim
Apr 19, 2006, 12:52 PM
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In reply to: sterlingjim, can you test a Metolius PAS for us? Would be a great info to have Thanks in advance
Send me a bunch. :lol:
I knew about the PAS but didn't know it's rated strength until now. It's rated for 18kN which isn't as strong as the ones I tested. This is probably because when it is loaded the bearing points at the links cause the edges of the web to fold or bunch. Webbing must be flat to get it's full strength. My gut tells me it will fail also but of course there's only one way to find out.
I can see no real reason to have a daisy built for maximum strength given the results of my tests and others. I suppose it might be a good idea for hanging stuff like haul bags.
Actually on second thought it's probably more versatile at full strength. I hate stuff that has only one specific use. With it full strength it could be used to extend a belay, just make sure you're attached to it with the rope. In a pinch it could also be used as a runner or an anchor component.
Jim
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norushnomore
Apr 20, 2006, 8:24 AM
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Will do, I have a coupe used (but not abused) ones. PM me details
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nedsurf
Apr 20, 2006, 11:12 AM
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I poo-pooed the PAS for a while as a gimmick, but when I got one for next to nothing and used it, I liked the versitility.
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jammer
Apr 20, 2006, 2:22 PM
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I own both. The PAS, even though it has less loops then the daisy chain, is built to withstand your body weight where the daisy chain is not. I've used them both while climbing and have decided to stick with the PAS for every safty reason there is. I like climbing and plan on doing some more. :wink:
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j_ung
Apr 20, 2006, 2:37 PM
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I think the point Jim is making is that the single safest way to anchor is with the climbing rope. The PAS, though not yet tested for this thread, is very static -- and will likely exhibit the exact same shortcomings as any other webbing tested. I'm not saying it's unsafe, since I don't have test results to back me up, but you had better be aware of its weaknesses. :)
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sterlingjim
Apr 20, 2006, 3:12 PM
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In reply to: The PAS, even though it has less loops then the daisy chain, is built to withstand your body weight where the daisy chain is not. :
I don't think this is exactly what you meant.
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tharlow
Apr 20, 2006, 6:01 PM
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Maybe I am missing the point. 9 MM cord is rated at 18.6 KN(black diamond web site), which I am told is sufficient for use as cordelette in an anchor system. Full strength daisy chain is rated at 19 KN. As long as the daisy is in good shape and clipped properly, what is the concern?
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treez
Apr 20, 2006, 6:08 PM
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Dynamics.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2006, 2:27 AM
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I thought the PAS was nylon...all the nylon slings passed Jim's test.
It'd be interesting to see the numbers on the drops though.
Cheers,
Jim D.
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porcelainsunset
Apr 21, 2006, 4:53 AM
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Only relevant to body retrieval :lol: :lol: :lol:
I loved that.
IMHO I prefer to have a daisy on me at all times. When setting up anchors, I tie in using the rope, and then use my daisy as a back up, attached loser than my primary (rope). The daisy is useful in case for whatever reason I need to untie (prepping a rappel) because it is a ready adjustable back up, which is really helpful at hanging belays.
So, although I agree that a daisy should never be used as a primary in any situation other than simply holding body weight, I think that they do have their uses outside of aid.
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norushnomore
Apr 21, 2006, 9:52 AM
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We should know soon, two of PAS(es) are in transit ;-)
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2006, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: IMHO I prefer to have a daisy on me at all times. When setting up anchors, I tie in using the rope, and then use my daisy as a back up, attached loser than my primary (rope). The daisy is useful in case for whatever reason I need to untie (prepping a rappel) because it is a ready adjustable back up, which is really helpful at hanging belays. So, although I agree that a daisy should never be used as a primary in any situation other than simply holding body weight, I think that they do have their uses outside of aid.
There are certainly those times where you need something to use...I'd prefer to use a knotted sling...but that's me.
All long as we're aware of the limitations of our gear...do what you like.
Jim
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elnero
Apr 26, 2006, 5:48 AM
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Somewhat similar topic:
I bought a BD dynex runner, is it safe/acceptable to tie knots and make a daisyish type deal with this? What kind of knot would one use? Waterknot on a bite was mentioned on the first page..isnt that just an overhand?
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